Jesus is God - Every knee shall bow

[Wootah]

Isaiah 45
22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him.


Philippians 2:10-11
English Standard Version
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Is every knee meant to bow to God or to Jesus or is this evidence Jesus is God?

[face2face]

Wisdom Personified:

“Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gains understanding.… She is more valuable than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare to her. In her right hand is long life, and in her left hand, wealth and honor” (Prov. 3:13, 15, 16).

“Wisdom has built her house; she has carved out her seven pillars” (Prov. 9:1).

The Nation of Israel is personified:

“Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O Virgin of Israel; you shall again be adorned with your tambourines” (Jer. 31:4, ESV).

The People of Christ are personified:

“Until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood” (Eph. 4:13, ESV).

“There is one body” (Eph. 4:4, ESV).

“You are the body of Christ” (1 Cor. 12:27, ESV).

“Christ is the head of the church, and he is the Savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23, ESV).

“He is the head of the body, the church… I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col. 1:18, 24, ESV).

“I have espoused you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ” (2 Cor. 11:2, ESV).

“The marriage of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready” (Rev. 19:7, ESV).

Riches are personified:

“No man can serve two Masters … Ye cannot serve God and Mammon” (Matt. 6:24).

And so on...I'm sure you understand why God's Power and Authority would be personified?

F2F

[onewithhim]

[Replying to face2face in post #72]

The key difference between Moses and Christ is that Christ perfectly manifested God and remained sinless. While both Moses and Christ shared the same human nature and revealed the Will of the Father, Christ’s manifestation of God's will was flawless and without sin.

How can a non-God creature perfectly manifest God?

Jesus perfectly manifested God because he was exactly true to the things that the Father taught him. (John 5:19) The Father, undoubtedly, didn't reveal to Jesus ALL the things the Father knows (Matthew 24:36), but what He did reveal, Jesus honored and followed and exemplified to the universe.

How can a non-God creature perfectly manifest God? We are talking about God here.

I answered that above.

[Capbook]

Now the context of Phil 2:10 is easy to gauge. Just read the verse before it to conclude who is Jesus.

(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,

Now who is deity again, God or his Son, Jesus?!

OK but isnt the name above all names only for God?

It is understood that God is the highest of all and His name is above everyone's. Now, He GAVE Jesus the name above all other names of those on earth and in the heavens, under the Lordship of the Father....how can the giver of a name be subordinate to anyone else? He obviously has all the authority and power, and He gives it to whomever He wishes.

Correct the Bible is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is subordinate to His Father.

John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 – "For 'He has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything has been put under him,' it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
John 10:29 – "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Philippians 2:6-8 – "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage... he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
John 17:1-5 – "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you... I brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Luke 22:42 – "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

It's a topic that Trinitarians often avoid discussing because the concept of God being both Master and Servant presents an apparent contradiction. It's difficult to reconcile these two roles without creating a logical inconsistency.

One of many with the Trinity.

Asking them to explain, prove, and provide evidence for Hypostasis is, at best, quite entertaining.

F2F

Ok, let me discuss with you the verses you quote Phil 2:6-8. Let me present to you the logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not?
3. If you answer the no.1 question honestly, why can't you apply the same logic to the no. 2 question? Why and explain.

1. He was in the form of a man, which is physical.
2, 3. Jesus was not equal to God, being in the FORM of God before he came to the earth, which merely means that Jesus was in SPIRIT form. (God is a Spirit, John 4:24, and so was Jesus before he came down here.) This doesn't indicate that Jesus was equal to his Father, just that they were in the same FORM--Spirit. The angels are spirit also, yet they are not equal to God.

So, the reason to the no.1 question is inapplicable to the question no. 2. Would that might be considered an equivocation?
We always reasoned that Jesus in the form of God but not God. Where the Bible is explicit that Jesus is God. Literal word for word Bible translation that aims to the highest degree of accuracy to the original Hebrew and Greek words rendered John 1:18 as the only-begotten God.
Where the "N7" prove and supported by papyri P66 and P75 that the original Greek words of the text is "only-begotten God or the only-begotten God. Only various readings says, "Son." Both translations are correct, we'll just acknowledged that Jesus has the nature of God.

(Updated ASV+) Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

[Wootah]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #92]

In a logical way. How can anything not perfect manifest or be perfect. It's logic 101.

[marke]

Now the context of Phil 2:10 is easy to gauge. Just read the verse before it to conclude who is Jesus.

(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,

Now who is deity again, God or his Son, Jesus?!

OK but isnt the name above all names only for God?

It is understood that God is the highest of all and His name is above everyone's. Now, He GAVE Jesus the name above all other names of those on earth and in the heavens, under the Lordship of the Father....how can the giver of a name be subordinate to anyone else? He obviously has all the authority and power, and He gives it to whomever He wishes.

Correct the Bible is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is subordinate to His Father.

John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 – "For 'He has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything has been put under him,' it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
John 10:29 – "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Philippians 2:6-8 – "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage... he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
John 17:1-5 – "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you... I brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Luke 22:42 – "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

It's a topic that Trinitarians often avoid discussing because the concept of God being both Master and Servant presents an apparent contradiction. It's difficult to reconcile these two roles without creating a logical inconsistency.

One of many with the Trinity.

Asking them to explain, prove, and provide evidence for Hypostasis is, at best, quite entertaining.

F2F

Ok, let me discuss with you the verses you quote Phil 2:6-8. Let me present to you the logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not?
3. If you answer the no.1 question honestly, why can't you apply the same logic to the no. 2 question? Why and explain.

1. He was in the form of a man, which is physical.
2, 3. Jesus was not equal to God, being in the FORM of God before he came to the earth, which merely means that Jesus was in SPIRIT form. (God is a Spirit, John 4:24, and so was Jesus before he came down here.) This doesn't indicate that Jesus was equal to his Father, just that they were in the same FORM--Spirit. The angels are spirit also, yet they are not equal to God.

Marke: The angels are spirits and not God because God commanded the angels to bow down and worship Jesus.

[onewithhim]

It is understood that God is the highest of all and His name is above everyone's. Now, He GAVE Jesus the name above all other names of those on earth and in the heavens, under the Lordship of the Father....how can the giver of a name be subordinate to anyone else? He obviously has all the authority and power, and He gives it to whomever He wishes.

Correct the Bible is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is subordinate to His Father.

John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 – "For 'He has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything has been put under him,' it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
John 10:29 – "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Philippians 2:6-8 – "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage... he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
John 17:1-5 – "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you... I brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Luke 22:42 – "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

It's a topic that Trinitarians often avoid discussing because the concept of God being both Master and Servant presents an apparent contradiction. It's difficult to reconcile these two roles without creating a logical inconsistency.

One of many with the Trinity.

Asking them to explain, prove, and provide evidence for Hypostasis is, at best, quite entertaining.

F2F

Ok, let me discuss with you the verses you quote Phil 2:6-8. Let me present to you the logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not?
3. If you answer the no.1 question honestly, why can't you apply the same logic to the no. 2 question? Why and explain.

1. He was in the form of a man, which is physical.
2, 3. Jesus was not equal to God, being in the FORM of God before he came to the earth, which merely means that Jesus was in SPIRIT form. (God is a Spirit, John 4:24, and so was Jesus before he came down here.) This doesn't indicate that Jesus was equal to his Father, just that they were in the same FORM--Spirit. The angels are spirit also, yet they are not equal to God.

So, the reason to the no.1 question is inapplicable to the question no. 2. Would that might be considered an equivocation?
We always reasoned that Jesus in the form of God but not God. Where the Bible is explicit that Jesus is God. Literal word for word Bible translation that aims to the highest degree of accuracy to the original Hebrew and Greek words rendered John 1:18 as the only-begotten God.
Where the "N7" prove and supported by papyri P66 and P75 that the original Greek words of the text is "only-begotten God or the only-begotten God. Only various readings says, "Son." Both translations are correct, we'll just acknowledged that Jesus has the nature of God.

(Updated ASV+) Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

No. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus is God. The manuscript that says "the only-begotten God" is contradicting the rest of the Bible. There are other manuscripts that render that verse as "the only-begotten Son." So how can you hang your belief on such tenuous translating, when the verse could very well say (and I believe that it does) that "the only-begotten Son" is how it should be translated. You say Jesus is God with no real back-up, as the Bible shows that God is one---the Father. You pick verses that are mistranslated, misconstrued, and questionable as to their rendering to prove Jesus is God. You have just a handful of verses, that are questionable, as anyone can see if they carefully scrutinize the verses. There are far more passages that say that the Father is the only true God. (I Corinthians 8:5,6; John 17:3; John 20:17 and thousands more.) You say yourself that "a variant reading is 'The only begotten Son.'"

[Capbook]

Correct the Bible is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is subordinate to His Father.

John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 – "For 'He has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything has been put under him,' it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
John 10:29 – "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Philippians 2:6-8 – "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage... he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
John 17:1-5 – "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you... I brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Luke 22:42 – "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

It's a topic that Trinitarians often avoid discussing because the concept of God being both Master and Servant presents an apparent contradiction. It's difficult to reconcile these two roles without creating a logical inconsistency.

One of many with the Trinity.

Asking them to explain, prove, and provide evidence for Hypostasis is, at best, quite entertaining.

F2F

Ok, let me discuss with you the verses you quote Phil 2:6-8. Let me present to you the logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, is He God or not?
3. If you answer the no.1 question honestly, why can't you apply the same logic to the no. 2 question? Why and explain.

1. He was in the form of a man, which is physical.
2, 3. Jesus was not equal to God, being in the FORM of God before he came to the earth, which merely means that Jesus was in SPIRIT form. (God is a Spirit, John 4:24, and so was Jesus before he came down here.) This doesn't indicate that Jesus was equal to his Father, just that they were in the same FORM--Spirit. The angels are spirit also, yet they are not equal to God.

So, the reason to the no.1 question is inapplicable to the question no. 2. Would that might be considered an equivocation?
We always reasoned that Jesus in the form of God but not God. Where the Bible is explicit that Jesus is God. Literal word for word Bible translation that aims to the highest degree of accuracy to the original Hebrew and Greek words rendered John 1:18 as the only-begotten God.
Where the "N7" prove and supported by papyri P66 and P75 that the original Greek words of the text is "only-begotten God or the only-begotten God. Only various readings says, "Son." Both translations are correct, we'll just acknowledged that Jesus has the nature of God.

(Updated ASV+) Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

No. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus is God. The manuscript that says "the only-begotten God" is contradicting the rest of the Bible. There are other manuscripts that render that verse as "the only-begotten Son." So how can you hang your belief on such tenuous translating, when the verse could very well say (and I believe that it does) that "the only-begotten Son" is how it should be translated. You say Jesus is God with no real back-up, as the Bible shows that God is one---the Father. You pick verses that are mistranslated, misconstrued, and questionable as to their rendering to prove Jesus is God. You have just a handful of verses, that are questionable, as anyone can see if they carefully scrutinize the verses. There are far more passages that say that the Father is the only true God. (I Corinthians 8:5,6; John 17:3; John 20:17 and thousands more.) You say yourself that "a variant reading is 'The only begotten Son.'"

Ok, what I quoted is from the Updated American Standard Version a literal word for word translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy from the original languages in Hebrew or Greek. And that is the "original wordings" supported by papyri P66, P75 and etc. Those are objective evidence, facts that are verifiable and are original Bible text.

See also, Wescott and Hort's, "The New Testament in the Original Greek," supported Jesus as God. Note: Wescott and Hort is not a translation, it is original Greek of NT.

(Greek NT Westcott and Hort+) θεον G2316 N-ASM  ουδεις G3762 A-NSM-N  εωρακεν G3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT  πωποτε G4455 ADV  μονογενης G3439 A-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  ο G3588 T-NSM  ων G1510 V-PAP-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  κολπον G2859 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  πατρος G3962 N-GSM  εκεινος G1565 D-NSM  εξηγησατο G1834 V-ADI-3S 

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #97]

Here are versions that say "the only-begotten SON" at John 1:18:

1. Interlinear Bible in Greek, Hebrew and English
2. King James Version
3. American Standard Bible/Translated out of the original tongues/1901
4. Jerusalem Bible
5. New Jerusalem Bible
6. James Moffatt Translation
7. Douay-Rheims
8. Young's Literal Translation
9. Tyndale's New Testament
10. JN Darby/ A New Translation
11. Emphatic Diaglott/Containing the Greek Text
12. New Catholic Confraternity Edition/1949-1950
13. Revised English Bible/Oxford, Cambridge/1989
14. New Testament in English/Msgr RA Knox
15. Revised Standard Version
16. Holy Bible/Sacred Heart Edition

There are more. I could go on. I think it suffices to say that the versions that put "God" where "Son" ought to be are not true to the meaning and have twisted the verse.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #97]

Here are versions that say "the only-begotten SON" at John 1:18:

1. Interlinear Bible in Greek, Hebrew and English
2. King James Version
3. American Standard Bible/Translated out of the original tongues/1901
4. Jerusalem Bible
5. New Jerusalem Bible
6. James Moffatt Translation
7. Douay-Rheims
8. Young's Literal Translation
9. Tyndale's New Testament
10. JN Darby/ A New Translation
11. Emphatic Diaglott/Containing the Greek Text
12. New Catholic Confraternity Edition/1949-1950
13. Revised English Bible/Oxford, Cambridge/1989
14. New Testament in English/Msgr RA Knox
15. Revised Standard Version
16. Holy Bible/Sacred Heart Edition

There are more. I could go on. I think it suffices to say that the versions that put "God" where "Son" ought to be are not true to the meaning and have twisted the verse.

I know you missed to notice that the Westcott and Hort New Testament is officially titled "The New Testament in the Original Greek" and is a critical edition of the Greek New Testament published in 1881. It's a critical edition, meaning it was compiled by examining and comparing ancient Greek manuscripts to identify the most original wording of the New Testament. https://www.google.com/search?q=title+o ... e&ie=UTF-8

Westcott and Hort is not a translation, it is original Greek of the NT.
What you post are translations, mostly from outdated paraphrase.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #97]

Here are versions that say "the only-begotten SON" at John 1:18:

1. Interlinear Bible in Greek, Hebrew and English
2. King James Version
3. American Standard Bible/Translated out of the original tongues/1901
4. Jerusalem Bible
5. New Jerusalem Bible
6. James Moffatt Translation
7. Douay-Rheims
8. Young's Literal Translation
9. Tyndale's New Testament
10. JN Darby/ A New Translation
11. Emphatic Diaglott/Containing the Greek Text
12. New Catholic Confraternity Edition/1949-1950
13. Revised English Bible/Oxford, Cambridge/1989
14. New Testament in English/Msgr RA Knox
15. Revised Standard Version
16. Holy Bible/Sacred Heart Edition

There are more. I could go on. I think it suffices to say that the versions that put "God" where "Son" ought to be are not true to the meaning and have twisted the verse.

I know you missed to notice that the Westcott and Hort New Testament is officially titled "The New Testament in the Original Greek" and is a critical edition of the Greek New Testament published in 1881. It's a critical edition, meaning it was compiled by examining and comparing ancient Greek manuscripts to identify the most original wording of the New Testament. https://www.google.com/search?q=title+o ... e&ie=UTF-8

Westcott and Hort is not a translation, it is original Greek of the NT.
What you post are translations, mostly from outdated paraphrase.

The versions I have cited are "outdated paraphrase"? I don't see how you could call the Interlinear Bible outdated paraphrase. It goes to the original Greek and follows it word-for-word. So does the Emphatic Diaglott.