For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

Yes. (I can't agree that they are "equally Jehovah" because I don't know what that means and I can't agree to what I can't understand.) But yes I agree that "The Angel" is like the wife and he submits and obeys to his superior The Sender. I agree that like a wife, this angels is the "assistant" not the head, not the boss, not the leader, but the 2nd in command.

So yes in heaven everyone is 100% equally SPIRIT, God The angels, The Angel... all 100% spirit just as all humans are 100% human. But just as in human families there is position and rank, and just as a husband is superior in authority and has The right to demand his wife submits to him but The wife does not have that much authority, The Angel subjects himself to the Sender in all things, while The Sender subjects to no one and nobody.


We call the one that is superior in authority and power Almighty God.

And the submissive lesser god we call Jesus.



JW

You're choosing to believe one bit of the analogy in 1 Corinthians 11:3 and deny the other bit. If you want to deny half of the verse that's up to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 131 by dakoski]

What bit am I denying?

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

What bit am I denying?

Perhaps that's better for you to reflect on for yourself.

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps that's better for you to reflect on for yourself.

I just did and I have come to the conclusion there is no part of the analogy I am ignoring. I've decided after reflection that you are wrong if you are suggesting I did.

Does the Bible teach that men and women are both human?

Yes and The Sender and the Angel are both spirits; so just as a man and a woman are both human, The Sender and his Angel are both Spirits.

Spirits with different roles.

One's role (like the husband) is to be the master (in the bible, various terms are used with reference to a husband, such as are ʼa·dhohnʹ (lord), baʹʽal (owner; master) ).

The others role to submit and obey his master (like a wife).

Their roles not being EQUAL since only one of the two has to the power and authority to command the other while the other lacks such authority.

THE NAME

As for the name I've been reflecting on that and I have come to the conclusion that we only know what an angel was refered to while on a mission on earth we do not know what that individual is called when in heaven.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

“I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.� (1 Cor. 11:3)

While man and woman are human they are not equal in being the head of the family. Neither is Father and Son. The trinity teaches both are equally God yet the scriptures do not support this. Nor does the the Bible teach that man and woman are equally the head.

Does the Bible teach that men and women are both human?

Yep, but not equals in the family.

[2timothy316]

In the same way, the passage is teaching that men and women have different roles. Yes I agree the Father and Son have different roles.

Yes, one is God and one is the Christ.
"The head of the Christ is God.� (1 Cor. 11:3)

They do not share the role as God. It is plain in the Bible, it's right there. It can't be any clearer.

In both the case as husband and wife, the husband is over the wife. They are not equals.

The scripture is not referring to their species or what they physically are. Its showing who answers to who. The Christ answers to God and the wife answers to her husband. The husband answers to the Christ. All of these roles, wife, husband, Christ and God are not equal. The Word of God is pointing out the hierarchy of the roles from least to greatest. Wife, husband, Christ, God.

[dakoski]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Yep, but not equals in the family.

We are agreeing - men and women are equally human but have different roles. Exactly the same with the Father and Son - both are equally Jehovah (see the verses I quoted e.g. Exodus 33:11 and 33:20) but have different roles.

[dakoski]

In the same way, the passage is teaching that men and women have different roles. Yes I agree the Father and Son have different roles.

Yes, one is God and one is the Christ.
"The head of the Christ is God.� (1 Cor. 11:3)

They do not share the role as God. It is plain in the Bible, it's right there. It can't be any clearer.

In both the case as husband and wife, the husband is over the wife. They are not equals.

The scripture is not referring to their species or what they physically are. Its showing who answers to who. The Christ answers to God and the wife answers to her husband. The husband answers to the Christ. All of these roles, wife, husband, Christ and God are not equal. The Word of God is pointing out the hierarchy of the roles from least to greatest. Wife, husband, Christ, God.

Couple of problems with your answer:

1) Scripture teaches that both Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live (the Father) and the angel of Jehovah (the Son) who people may see face to face (e.g. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah) are both Jehovah. See Genesis 18-19 and Exodus 33:11, 20.

Yet of course they have different roles. Jehovah in the heavens sends the angel of Jehovah etc. These passages reflect 1 Corinthians 11:3.

2) If we apply your logic to 1 Corinthians 11:3 then if the Son is not equally Jehovah with the Father - then nor is the woman equally human along with the man. Unfortunately your interpretation leads to absurdity. I don't expect you to agree but that's fine.

[JehovahsWitness]

Couple of problems with your answer:

1) Scripture teaches that both Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live (the Father) and the angel of Jehovah (the Son) who people may see face to face (e.g. Abraham, Moses, Isaiah) are both Jehovah. See Genesis 18-19 and Exodus 33:11, 20.

Why is that a "problem" they are not the same person.

One "the husband" who submits to nobody (I think we can agree to call The Almighty") no human can see and live.

The other The Angel, (the one that is in a submissive position) like the wife, people can see.

To illustrate Imagine a man was a recluse and refused to speak to anyone. But since he was married he "sends" his wife to speak for him. Can we say it's a contradiction because we say No one can see the husband but we can see the wife that the husband sends with a message from the husband?

In the same way there is no contradiction, we cannot see the Almighty (The sender) but we can see his messenger (The Angel).

What exactly is the problem?

[JehovahsWitness]

2) If we apply your logic to 1 Corinthians 11:3 then if the Son is not equally Jehovah with the Father - then nor is the woman equally human along with the man. Unfortunately your interpretation leads to absurdity. I don't expect you to agree but that's fine.

No they are both equally human (Just as The Angel and The Almighty) are equally spirits; they are just not spirits with equal authority (just as the husband and wife don't have equal authority).