For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

For which Jehovah should we witness?

Are you suggesting there are more than one Jehovahs (YHWH)?

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

For which Jehovah should we witness?

Are you suggesting there are more than one Jehovahs (YHWH)?

Plurality of persons that share the one divine name Jehovah - please see the OP and questions for debate for further details

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

For which Jehovah should we witness?

Are you suggesting there are more than one Jehovahs (YHWH)?

Plurality of persons that share the one divine name Jehovah

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.

[dakoski]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.

You could read the OP where there are explicit Scriptures cited and questions for debate posed. I'm happy to discuss Deut 6:4 but let's first discuss the Scriptures on the angel of the Lord - as this is the basis for the thread.

[JehovahsWitness]

Plurality of persons that share the one divine name Jehovah

"Plurality of persons" I don't known what that means... "Plurality of persons". Is that just some fancy way of refering to the trinity?

We did discuss these points already back in October 2016, please see links below.






JW


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[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.

You could read the OP where there are explicit Scriptures cited and questions for debate posed. I'm happy to discuss Deut 6:4 but let's first discuss the Scriptures on the angel of the Lord - as this is the basis for the thread.

As it stands, Deut 6:4 is an answer to your OP title. "Which Jehovah should we witness". The answer is, we should witness for the "One Jehovah". So should we not start with the most obvious Biblical answer to your title question Deut 6:4 and go from there? In case you didn't know, I answer scripture with scripture not with personal interpretation.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

I do not know of a scripture that says, 'Jehovah our God is many Jehovahs'.

You could read the OP where there are explicit Scriptures cited and questions for debate posed. I'm happy to discuss Deut 6:4 but let's first discuss the Scriptures on the angel of the Lord - as this is the basis for the thread.

As it stands, Deut 6:4 is an answer to your OP title. "Which Jehovah should we witness". The answer is, we should witness for the "One Jehovah". So should we not start with the most obvious Biblical answer to your title question Deut 6:4 and go from there? In case you didn't know, I answer scripture with scripture not with personal interpretation.

that is the Shama which Jews recite to this day.

[brianbbs67]

Those that ate and drank saw God. So, did Abraham. I don't think there are 2 YHVH's described in the bible.

[dakoski]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

As it stands, Deut 6:4 is an answer to your OP title. "Which Jehovah should we witness". The answer is, we should witness for the "One Jehovah". So should we not start with the most obvious Biblical answer to your title question Deut 6:4 and go from there? In case you didn't know, I answer scripture with scripture not with personal interpretation.

Couple of points:

1) In case you struggled to read the OP here are the questions for debate, do you have any thoughts on these?

Questions for debate:

1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament? [see Scriptures cited in OP for support for this]

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching? [again please comment on Scriptures relating to the angel of Jehovah e.g Exodus 33, Genesis 18-19 and other Scriptures cited in OP]

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

2) Simply citing Deut 6:4 doesn't make the Scriptures I cited above go away. All Scripture is God breathed as your username reminds us all. If that's the case then you should be as excited about talking about Genesis 16, Genesis 18-19, Exodus 3, Exodus 33 and many other similar passages. Why the reticence, are they not also God breathed? It speaks volumes that you don't want to discuss the questions for debate.

3) You should be reading the Pentateuch as one document and that requires reading Deut 6:4 in the light of verses such as Genesis 16, 18-19, Exodus 3, Exodus 33 that precede it in the Pentateuch.

So I'm not just being stubborn, its good Biblical interpretation skills to read passages within their context of a particular book in the Bible (i.e. in this case the Pentateuch). The Pentateuch often has common themes running through the book that we miss if we don't read passages within the context of the book as a whole.

Once we've established who this God is revealed in the Pentateuch particularly in the books of Genesis and Exodus through the verses I've quoted above, we can then understand more clearly what the author is intending later on in Deut 6:4 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one'.

I promise you we will discuss the interpretation of Deut 6:4, but I'm just not willing for you to evade the questions for debate and to focus on Scriptures you'd rather discuss.