For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 156 by dakoski]

Sorry for the interjection. But, I just read all those verses and none of them imply prayer to Yeshua. Acts was the closest, but if ok, the and wouldn't be there. There is instruction in the Tanakh about directing all prayer to God(YHWH) and Jesus followed that throughout what we know of his short career.

No problem at all. It seems to me clear that the verses are talking about praying to Jesus but we can agree to disagree.

Yeah I agree that prayer to YHWH is encouraged in the Tanakh. Since I've argued that Yeshua is YHWH along with the Father - then it would make sense to pray to Yeshua. However, I agree that both the Old and New Testaments make it clear the prime recipient of prayer is the Father.

That Jesus didn't pray to himself is not a good argument for us not praying to Jesus. Since it would seem odd to expect Jesus to pray to himself - at least in my view.

[polonius]

dakoski posted:

"As we've seen in the thread YHWH (or LORD in most English translations) is used not only for the Father (e.g. Exodus 33:20) who no one may see and live but the one sent by YHWH (Exodus 33:11). Jesus over 50 times in the New Testament refers to himself as the one sent by the Father."

RESPONSE: But never himself as God.

Ever wonder why?

[dakoski]

[Replying to polonius]

RESPONSE: But never himself as God.

Ever wonder why?

Jesus saw himself as sent by the Father - and his mission was to draw attention to the Father. In the same way the Holy Spirit's mission was to primarily draw attention to Christ. Power and Greatness in the New Testament isn't like our culture in the West where we want to elbow our way into centre position at others expense in the way of people like Trump. The way of greatness in the New Testament is other-centred service. For example Mark 10:41-45 (NIV - but feel free to read whatever translation you please):

41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.�

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 156 by dakoski]

Sorry for the interjection. But, I just read all those verses and none of them imply prayer to Yeshua. Acts was the closest, but if ok, the and wouldn't be there. There is instruction in the Tanakh about directing all prayer to God(YHWH) and Jesus followed that throughout what we know of his short career.

No problem at all. It seems to me clear that the verses are talking about praying to Jesus but we can agree to disagree.

Yeah I agree that prayer to YHWH is encouraged in the Tanakh. Since I've argued that Yeshua is YHWH along with the Father - then it would make sense to pray to Yeshua. However, I agree that both the Old and New Testaments make it clear the prime recipient of prayer is the Father.

That Jesus didn't pray to himself is not a good argument for us not praying to Jesus. Since it would seem odd to expect Jesus to pray to himself - at least in my view.

Prayer to God is emphasized as the only method. As Christ did. Why would the road less travelled of praying to someone who never claimed to be God or is definitively God be OK? I agree, they could be, but default to what is written. I address all prayer to YHVH. There is no chance of error that way. I think it is dangerous and misleading to encourage religion practices that are not 100% founded in evidence(scripture and personal). i would never want to mislead anyone, religiously, on simple belief. Because if you are wrong, you have lead others in the same path and have become a "worthless shepherd " as the book describes. I will not take an outside chance of causing other to Transgress by what I think is true.