For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I don't care about the trinity. I do care about the bible. The point is that there is no biblical reason to conclude that "The angel of Jehovah" is a second Jehovah. See reasons below.

The argument you presented above was designed to refute something, right? .

Yes it was designed to refute that

a) there are literally two JEHOVAHS

b) and that the angel of Jehovah is Almighty God


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

The biblical reason to conclude that the angel of Jehovah is a second person that also shares the divine name Jehovah is because the Bible says so.

The bible says nohthing of the kind. That is imho your faulty interpretation of certain passages. Below are (6) biblically sound reasons that expose your interpretation as faulty.

• #1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
  • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
    - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
  #2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an angel. indeed the bible implies Jehovah CREATED the angels since he created " all things" ( compare Job 38:7; Rev 4:11) so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)
  
  #3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.
  
  #4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.
  
  # 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.
  
  6 # Representation: Refering to someone as Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean they are Jehovah ( if someone called me the queen of England does that mean I am her?) . Although on occasions individuals addressed angels as "Jehovah" , there is no biblical reason to conclude they didn't do so as an expression of their respect as to who these angels represented rather than a belief there was more than one Almighty God

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

The biblical reason to conclude that the angel of Jehovah is a second person that also shares the divine name Jehovah is because the Bible says so .

Okay maybe it is a matter of semantics, so let's clarify what you mean by "share the same name". If you mean there are other spirits, that are

a) created beings (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
b) that are not equal to Almighty God the creator,
c) evidently have their own designated names and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
d) that refuse worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

... but

d) who on assignment were allowed to be addressed as "Jehovah" because on those occasions they represented Almighty God

... then yes, we have no difference of opinion.

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I've already addressed these above, and they aren't Biblical reasons:

#1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".

- Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
- Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".

I’ve already answered these, but here goes again. Angel of Jehovah means messenger of Jehovah. The human messanger of dakoski:
- isn’t owned by dakoski
- the human messanger shares my human nature yet is distinct from me

#2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an ange; , indeed the bible says Jehovah CREATED the angels so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)

The angel of the Jehovah is the angel distinct from other angels see Genesis 18:1 and 19:1. The NWT acknowledges that Genesis 18:1 is referring to the angel of Jehovah (see their footnote), how do they translate the verse:
“Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day.�

So your argument has been refuted using your own translation. The angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah.

#3 messenger: An angel is a messenger. Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

I’m not saying the sender is an angel – Jehovah in the heavens and the angel of Jehovah have distinct roles yet share the same divine name. See my example above concerning dakoski and his messanger. However, both are given the divine name Jehovah in Scripture. Your circular arguments don't change that.

#4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels, thus if an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be seoerate and apart from znyone describes an "angel"

Can you provide me a Scripture where it states the angel of Jehovah was created?

# 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another. Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.

Again, see my example of dakoski and his messenger. I send a messenger, we have different roles, but are equally human. To conclude that my messenger is sub-human is absurd.

What is the authority for your assertion that the Son and the Father need to have the same role to be equal. This comes from an Aristotelian view of God that is power alone. In the Bible greatness is shown through humility and service. The Father and the Son have distinct roles yet are both referred to as Jehovah.

6 # Representation: Refering to someone as Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean they are Jehovah ( if someone called me the queen of England does that mean I am her?) . Although on occasions individuals addressed angels as "Jehovah" , there is no biblical reason to conclude they didn't do so as an expression of their respect as to who these angels represented rather than a belief there was more than one Almighty God

There are dozens if not hundreds of messangers of Jehovah – prophets, priests, angels, apostles etc. Any of them addressed as Jehovah? Only the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah – coincidence? Does Jehovah share his glory with another – not according to Isaiah 42. Please give some support for your assertion that persons other than Jehovah are called Jehovah from the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
... they aren't Biblical reasons:

#1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".

- Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
- Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".

Yes they are they are analysing the words in the bible. They are biblically linguistic reasons.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Angel of Jehovah means messenger of Jehovah.

Are you suggesting Jehovahs angels don't belong to him?

Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Okay maybe it is a matter of semantics, so let's clarify what you mean by "share the same name". If you mean there are other spirits, that are

a) created beings (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
b) that are not equal to Almighty God the creator,
c) evidently have their own designated names and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
d) that refuse worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

... but

d) who on assignment were allowed to be addressed as "Jehovah" because on those occasions they represented Almighty God


... then yes, we have no difference of opinion.

There are some similarities and some differences. I agree with you that YHWH in the heavens (the Father) is distinct and has a role distinct from the angel of YHWH (the Son). For example, the Father sends the Son, not the other way round.

However, the angel of YHWH (the Son) is honoured with the same title YHWH as YHWH in the heavens (the Father). This seems to me irrefutable based on what the Bible teaches.

No other is given the title YHWH other than the Spirit of YHWH. If the Spirit of YHWH is a person, which again from Scripture I think is clear (beyond the scope of this thread to debate this but can do it at some point in future), then only three persons in the Bible are given the name YHWH: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[JehovahsWitness]

I agree with you that YHWH in the heavens (the Father) is distinct and has a role distinct from the angel of YHWH (the Son). For example, the Father sends the Son, not the other way round.

Yes, but one role implies authority, the other submission to authority, does it not? See point #3 below

#3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

[dakoski]

Angel of Jehovah means messenger of Jehovah.

Are you suggesting Jehovahs angels don't belong to him?

Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.

[JehovahsWitness]

The angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah.

That is not disputed, what is under dispute is what does this mean? Does it mean this angel is equal to Almighty God? Imcontend no. See point # 4 and #5 below

#4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.

# 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.