Born Again?

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Zzyzx
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Born Again?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Born Again?
Easyrider wrote:Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.
Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?
In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity
It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?
Easyrider wrote:They would have never left the faith.
Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?
Easyrider wrote:I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.
Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #111

Post by drs »

myth-one.com wrote:
drs wrote:I have already given you the parable of lazaras and the rich man which taught us that there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
Myth-one.com wrote:What happens to the souls of innocent children that are taken by death?
Drs wrote:What more anwser are you looking for?
You have already ruled the options down to only two Possibilities:
Drs wrote:... there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
I suppose you mean heaven and hell.

So where do the souls of innocent children that are taken by death go to spend eternity?

[center]******** Heaven or Hell ********[/center]


Gon't you understand? this was answered in the scripture I gave you, GOD will have mercy on whom GOD will have mercy.

And what make's you think these children will be children for all time?

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Post #112

Post by myth-one.com »

Myth-one.com wrote:What happens to the souls of innocent children that are taken by death?
Drs wrote:What more anwser are you looking for?
You have already ruled the options down to only two Possibilities:
Drs wrote:... there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
I suppose you mean heaven and hell.

So where do the souls of innocent children that are taken by death go to spend eternity?

[center]******** Heaven or Hell ********[/center]
Drs wrote:Don't you understand? this was answered in the scripture I gave you, GOD will have mercy on whom GOD will have mercy.
The answer is either heaven or hell according to your earlier post. Are you now backing down from that statement?

If not, then your answer has to be either heaven or hell.
drs wrote:And what make's you think these children will be children for all time?
They will not. But if they were ALL innocent children at death, you are now saying that God could possibly send some of them to hell? So God has mercy on some innocent children, but not all!

Please explain!

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Post #113

Post by drs »

myth-one.com wrote:
Myth-one.com wrote:What happens to the souls of innocent children that are taken by death?
Drs wrote:What more anwser are you looking for?
You have already ruled the options down to only two Possibilities:
Drs wrote:... there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
I suppose you mean heaven and hell.

So where do the souls of innocent children that are taken by death go to spend eternity?

[center]******** Heaven or Hell ********[/center]
Drs wrote:Don't you understand? this was answered in the scripture I gave you, GOD will have mercy on whom GOD will have mercy.
The answer is either heaven or hell according to your earlier post. Are you now backing down from that statement?

If not, then your answer has to be either heaven or hell.
drs wrote:s"]And what make's you think these children will be children for all time?
They will not. But if they were ALL innocent children at death, you are now saying that God could possibly send some of them to hell? So God has mercy on some innocent children, but not all!

Please explain!

There is nothing to explain, there is no specifac scripture in the bible that says exactly what happens to children, infants, unborn babies so I quoted you GOD has mercy and compassion of whomever He wishes.

GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.

I honestly don't give it much thought or concern myself with these things because there is nothing I can say of value(only speculation)

Do you know what I mean?

There is no scripture to debate on the subject.

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Post #114

Post by myth-one.com »

drs wrote:There is nothing to explain, there is no specifac scripture in the bible that says exactly what happens to children, infants, unborn babies so I quoted you GOD has mercy and compassion of whomever He wishes.
Wrong! There is specific scripture that states exactly what happens to all humans!
It's just that you do not believe those scriptures. Here is what you believe:
Drs wrote:... there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
Are you now denying that statement?
Drs wrote:GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.
If one innocent infant goes to Hell upon death, then God is not just and righteous. Do you agree?
I honestly don't give it much thought or concern myself with these things because there is nothing I can say of value(only speculation)

Do you know what I mean?
Oh absolutely! You mean you cannot defend what you have always been taught!
drs wrote:There is no scripture to debate on the subject.
None that supports your beliefs.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
In an email the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association wrote:God, in His mercy and love, watches over little children who are taken by death, and they go to be with Him in heaven.
Dr. Billy Graham knows where children who pass away in their innocent years go. Are you saying that Dr. Graham is wrong? Oh my God!

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Post #115

Post by drs »

myth-one.com wrote:
drs wrote:There is nothing to explain, there is no specifac scripture in the bible that says exactly what happens to children, infants, unborn babies so I quoted you GOD has mercy and compassion of whomever He wishes.
Wrong! There is specific scripture that states exactly what happens to all humans!
It's just that you do not believe those scriptures. Here is what you believe:
Drs wrote:... there are two places a soul goes when the body dies.
Are you now denying that statement?
Ofcourse not.


Drs wrote:GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.
If one innocent infant goes to Hell upon death, then God is not just and righteous. Do you agree?
Look if GOD decided to send the entire population of earth to hell, would it not justifiable?

Next on innocent infants,

From our small view of time I suppose infants would be considered innocent.
example

Child of 2 years old dies by car crash.
(you would say that child was innocent because they never grew up and had the chance to sin and deny GOD correct?)

But I know GOD is outside of time and does not view it as we do, GOD can see past present and future, GOD made time and controls time.

The same 2year old child that you claim is innocent may very well be a sinner.
example

Say GOD looked into the future and saw this 2year old child at the age of 80 on his death bed from canncer and judged him according to the life he would have led if he did not die in the car crash at the age of 2.

Now just because you say the child died at 2 years old, GOD could have watched his entire life in a moment of time.

Now we are faced with question, did this child realy die inocent or did they die a sinner according to GOD not you.

I honestly don't give it much thought or concern myself with these things because there is nothing I can say of value(only speculation)

Do you know what I mean?
Oh absolutely! You mean you cannot defend what you have always been taught!
You keep assuming I was taught by people, why?



drs wrote:There is no scripture to debate on the subject.
None that supports your beliefs.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
In an email the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association wrote:God, in His mercy and love, watches over little children who are taken by death, and they go to be with Him in heaven.
Dr. Billy Graham knows where children who pass away in their innocent years go. Are you saying that Dr. Graham is wrong? Oh my God!

I am saying I don't know what Billy Graham teaches

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Post #116

Post by myth-one.com »

drs wrote:Look if GOD decided to send the entire population of earth to hell, would it not justifiable?
Your concept of hell's purpose is eternal torture. If God allows even one human to suffer eternally in hell, that is not justifiable!
Drs wrote:GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.
Not entirely! God made a covenant with mankind. God is committed to this covenant, and will not violate its conditions. Do you also believe God is dishonest?
drs wrote:Next on innocent infants,
... yada, yada, yada, yada . . . .

Your comments about innocent infants is ridiculous, sadistic, ignores mankinds freedom of choose; but most of all its comical! Try answering the question once again: Where do you believe innocent children go upon death? (No sidestepping)
drs wrote:You keep assuming I was taught by people, why?
Because you cannot support your beliefs with scripture.
In an email the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association wrote:God, in His mercy and love, watches over little children who are taken by death, and they go to be with Him in heaven.
Dr. Billy Graham knows where children who pass away in their innocent years go. Are you saying that Dr. Graham is wrong? Oh my God!
I am saying I don't know what Billy Graham teaches
In his book Peace with God Billy Graham wrote:The Bible teaches that you are an immortal soul. Your soul is eternal and will live forever. In other words, the real you -- the part of you that thinks, feels, dreams, aspires; the ego, the personality-- will never die. The Bible teaches that your soul will live forever in one of two places -- heaven or hell. If you are not a Christian and you have never been born again, then the Bible teaches that your soul goes immediately to a place Jesus called hades, where you will await the judgment of God. The moment a Christian dies, he goes immediately into the presence of Christ. There his soul awaits the resurrection, when the soul and body will be rejoined.
Now you do. He teaches exactly what you believe!

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Post #117

Post by drs »

myth-one.com wrote:
drs wrote:Look if GOD decided to send the entire population of earth to hell, would it not justifiable?
Your concept of hell's purpose is eternal torture. If God allows even one human to suffer eternally in hell, that is not justifiable!
Drs wrote:GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.
Not entirely! God made a covenant with mankind. God is committed to this covenant, and will not violate its conditions. Do you also believe God is dishonest
?


Ofcourse not, please quote the covenant.


drs wrote:Next on innocent infants,
... yada, yada, yada, yada . . . .

Your comments about innocent infants is ridiculous, sadistic, ignores mankinds freedom of choose; but most of all its comical! Try answering the question once again: Where do you believe innocent children go upon death? (No sidestepping)
It is very simple, if they are innocent, they will go to heaven.


Romans 9

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.� 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.�[c]
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.�[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.�[e]

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Post #118

Post by myth-one.com »

drs wrote:Look if GOD decided to send the entire population of earth to hell, would it not justifiable?
Myth-one.com wrote:If God allows even one human to suffer eternally in hell, that is not justifiable!
Drs wrote:GOD is the just and righteous judge of the universe and The LORD may do according to His will in these matters.
Myth-one.com wrote:Not entirely! God made a covenant with mankind. God is committed to this covenant, and will not violate its conditions. Do you also believe God is dishonest?
drs wrote:Ofcourse not, please quote the covenant.
____________________________________ The Covenants _____________________________

The two testaments of the Bible represent wills or covenants between God and man. There are two testaments because no one could qualify as an heir under the first covenant.

The inheritance of humans who qualify as heirs under terms of either testament is eternal life. Those not qualifying will perish. Eternal life is presented throughout the Bible as a gift, reward, or inheritance and never as something mankind possesses at birth. Jesus is bringing our inheritance with Him upon His return.

Under the first testament between God and the children of Israel, the only way to become an heir to eternal life was to never sin. The wages of sin is death. However, there was a fault in the first testament in that all sinned! Therefore, no one could gain eternal life under the first testament. Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second, or New Testament:
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)
Once God makes an agreement and sets the plan in place to create that agreement, God never violates His part of the agreement. If the wages of sin is death, and all have sinned, then all must die! That's how the original testament was set up. Consequently, no new angels would be created under this covenant! This was the one "fault" in the Old Testament. What to do?

Suppose some human could live a sinless life. He would not be under the death sentence. He could then give His life as a substitute for the others sentenced to death as a result of their sinning under the first covenant. Since they no longer had to die under the original testament, a new covenant could be designed whereby the fault in the first could be corrected. This is precisely what occurred when Jesus Christ came to earth as a human. He lived a sinless life, then sacrificed His life as payment for our sins. Since His sacrifice made eternal life possible for us, the new requirement for us to gain eternal life under the New Testament became a belief in Jesus Christ and recognition of His sacrifice. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)
The Old Testament vanished away and the New Testament become valid when Jesus sacrificed His life for ours:
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:16-17)

The New Testament covenant became effective and the Old Testament covenant vanished away when Jesus Christ, the testator, died on the cross. Once the New Testament became active, the previous will became obsolete. No one can now gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament. This includes infants and children! The only path to salvation presently is through a belief in Jesus Christ under terms of the New Testament covenant, and infants do not believe in Jesus Christ! Only those qualifying under terms of the New Testament covenant become heirs to eternal life. Those terms are:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
If we believe in Jesus, we become heirs to the Kingdom of God under terms of the New Testament which became effective when Jesus died on the cross. We enter the Kingdom of God when born again as a spiritual being at, or after our resurrection. Being born again is a real experience, not simply an emotional sensation one experiences upon accepting Jesus and being baptized.
______________________________________________________________________________________
drs wrote:Where do you believe innocent children go upon death? (No sidestepping)
It is very simple, if they are innocent, they will go to heaven.
And do you believe that is good?

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Post #119

Post by drs »

myth-one.com wrote:
drs wrote:
drs wrote:Where do you believe innocent children go upon death? (No sidestepping)
It is very simple, if they are innocent, they will go to heaven.
And do you believe that is good?

Do I believe what is good?

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Post #120

Post by myth-one.com »

myth-one.com wrote:Where do you believe innocent children go upon death? (No sidestepping)
drs wrote:It is very simple, if they are innocent, they will go to heaven.
myth-one.com wrote:And do you believe that is good?
drs wrote:Do I believe what is good?
Do you believe it is good if innocent children who pass away go immediately to heaven for eternity?

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