Born Again?

[Zzyzx]

.
Born Again?

Going to church for 1 week or 50 years doesn't make anybody a Christian. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN from above. They may be sincere in thinking they were once Christians, but if they didn't have the born-again experience and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit to the degree that they knew it was real, then I don't believe they were ever real Christians.

Is ER speaking for Christians generally, or is this a reflection of the beliefs of some sects or individuals?

In Christianity, born again means rebirth — namely, spiritual birth into the family of God with Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior. This is contrasted with the first birth everyone experiences in the flesh (physical world). In the Bible, Jesus stated that only those who are born-again shall see Heaven - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

The term is frequently used by Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Pentecostal and some Mainline branches of Protestant Christianity. It is sometimes associated with non-denominational individuals, groups and churches.

Outside of Christianity, the term "born again" is occasionally used to describe beliefs characterised by renewal, resurgence or return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_again_Christianity

It appears as though only certain sects place great emphasis upon "born again". Does that mean that all others are "not Real Christians"?

They would have never left the faith.

Is it true that once a person is "born again" they "NEVER leave the faith"?

How can anyone be certain that they or someone else is "born again" and will never leave the faith?

I have grave reservations about the legitimacy of so many people around here claiming to be former Christians, for the same reason I mention above.

Can the clear statements by members about being Former Christians be credibly dismissed with "I have greave reservations" by someone who knows nothing about the other person's situation? Or is that a presumptuous platitude?

[Cathar1950]

If your message is "ultimately immeasurably better" there is no need to ask people to hate others. They will recognize what is better and convert. If they did so without hating others they will be a better tool for spreading the message to others.

This is why science slowly wears down religions that oppose it. Science gives us things that people want and it does so without demanding hate of others. People see the benefits of life using what science offers and the hate that the opposing religions offer and make a choice.

This is why some Christians on this forum ask other Christians to lighten up the message. They know hate will not gain any converts. Why did Jesus not notice that hate is not a good method of converting others?

holmes, did you read what i wrote? the point is that while the word hate was used, it was a rhetorical figurative usage, not a literal one. christian theology does not teach actual hate in any sense of the word. ya gotta read it with a little depth, bro...

The word used is translated as hate everywhere else.
The author was not saying like less, he used the word hate. Granted it might be a metaphor and as I said earlier we can't know what Jesus said, we can only know what later believers wrote and from the variations from Mark are different that is the interpretation they took from Mark.
As Upallnight points, out how do you determine how you translate or interpret?
I suggest that when you interpret Christianity as all about love you are being selective. Even what ever was taught about love is interpreted differently depending on the authors. There are clearly passages that are not about love.
Love sometimes is limited to the community of believers, other times it is just a strategy to either win converts or heap hot coals.
The agape love is closely related to the relationship between a vassil and their Lord. It is also obedience, if you love you obey.

[czollers]

It has already been presented in this thread that the word used means hate in every other part of the Bible. You are using special pleading that it means something different here.
How do you know it is not literal? Do you have a means of telling when the bible is literal and when it is not?
And because you have now named your self as the person that knows about all Christian theology I will be asking you about the faith of the rest of the Christians here, OK? They did agree to put you in charge, right?

well listen, you don't have to believe me. do the research yourself. cross reference jesus words form the accounts of each of the gospels. read a few commentaries by scholars who understand the cultural context and can read it in the original language. then come back here & offer a correction. i will be delighted to hear your thoughts.

but if you're not willing to do any of that reading, then perhaps its possible that someone who has may have a slightly better understanding of the material than you do. perhaps not. only one way to find out, gov'nah...

and, i'm sorry if i set myself up as a know0it-all. i'm definitely not. but i do read a lot, and i do have a tendency to get upset when i think someone is mis-characterizing scripture. i felt you were. but i'd love to encourage continued constructive dialogue about it.

i don't want to speak on behalf of every christian. i do want to speak on behalf of what i feel is the integrity of the philosophy of the bible. and while i am no scholar, i have some experience with it...

[upallnite]

Because they were the ones arguing with Him.

Unless you are now claiming to be God I am not debating with God, nor is anyone else.

First, do I think there is another way to lead people to repentance?

In a general statment no, people have to know and understand that they have violated GOD'S laws and continue to live in sin without giving it a second thought.

Heck, I can make people repent with a baseball bat. That does not make it right.

This world teaches sin and imorality from day 1.

That is not the world I was raised in.

Sexual sin is destroying this world, by the time children grow up, go to public school then high school, by the time they have graguated if they do they have been uterly corrupted in all mannor of worldly views and ways.

Please show how sexual sin has destroyed this world. Until then I call BS.

I am the first one to admit that I am vile sinner that GOD has granted forgiveness and a new life too, I deserve death and everlasting punishment for all time but by the grace of GOD I have been granted life a place of service before my LORD.

What was that you were saying about pride?

I must have true humility before my LORD day and night and my heart must not be lifted up among my brothers.

From my seat you don't look like you are doing it right.

But I must serve my LORD and bring forth CHRIST'S word in boldness and stand firm in the truth always.

Let me know when you can demonstrate what you claim is true.

Now 2000years later more then ever is the time to preach repentence and I am well aware that this offends many and also many say as you have said above that I am looking down my nose at people but that is not the case.

Keep going buddy, your doing a great job. For my side.

Prayer for Boldness
All this says is that they got scared and recited the bible to comfort themselves. This has nothing to do with Hell, being born again, or convincing others to repent. You do not seam to be able to stay on one topic.

I have THE HOLY SPIRIT in me who grants me peace to my mind, who strengthens me from within that I may come out here and speak truth.

NO, I have HS in me. So I get to tell you what is real and what is not real.

Now let me ask you, who realy wants me to be quiet and not preach repentence and do what CHRIST commands?

People that don't hate their fellow man may want you to stop telling people to hate eachother.

Satan wants me to be quiet, deny my LORD and not speak the truth as it was meant to be.

No, humans want you to be quite. Satan is a character in a book that has not been show to exist.

CHRIST never told anyone to change the gospel and the way it is to be preached.

Then stop changing it.

Hebrews 13
Please explain how he paid for our sins then.

The word of the LORD endures forever(not forever changing)

So you have an original Bible, one that has not been mistranslated and does not require interpretation? I don't think so.

1Peter1
This seams to support Myth-one not you. Why did you quote a part of the Bible that defeats your argument? Are you just quoting the Bible for the heck of it?

Guilt
This is another tactic commonly used by cults to lure members into their fold. Why would a true message require quilt to convert followers?

GOD detests sin

God caused sin.

Jesus Testifies to the Churches
2000 years is real quick. Yes sir, lickty split.

You think maybe you may be the one outside practicing a lie or are you to proud?

The messege of the gospel is only for those that hear in the way that GOD has said it.

Now you are claiming to have a different type of hearing? Can you back this up with anything?

And for the wicked, the evil and unbelievers and those who refuse to repent let them mock and laugh and speak all manor of blaspemeies against the MOST HIGH for the time is at hand and they will recieve their reward.

If you say this to someone's face they are likely to kick the snot out of you then call the cops to get a restraining order.

Revelation 22
Who gets to decide who is holy and who is unjust? You or what you claim God is?

[czollers]

The word used is translated as hate everywhere else.
The author was not saying like less, he used the word hate. Granted it might be a metaphor and as I said earlier we can't know what Jesus said, we can only know what later believers wrote and from the variations from Mark are different that is the interpretation they took from Mark.
As Upallnight points, out how do you determine how you translate or interpret?
I suggest that when you interpret Christianity as all about love you are being selective. Even what ever was taught about love is interpreted differently depending on the authors. There are clearly passages that are not about love.
Love sometimes is limited to the community of believers, other times it is just a strategy to either win converts or heap hot coals.
The agape love is closely related to the relationship between a vassil and their Lord. It is also obedience, if you love you obey.

ahhh, now THERE is a lucid argument. yes, i agree with a lot of this, and i admit that i do interpret the bible with a bent towards grace-based belief, which is to say, i am more likely to "hear truth" when i read a commentary that also leans towards grace. it's actually never been pointed out to me before; i may need to re-read some things for a more balanced appeal.

yet in the cultural context of the comments about hating your mother & father, i do believe it is a figurative usage. just as i believe jesus did not mean it literally (at least, not specifically or only literally) when he said if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off or if your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. i suppose its possible i am choosing what to believe here. i will have to think about that. but up until now i have believed that there was a deeper meaning, and i feel pretty comfortable with that, because it seems to fit into the message of the NT as a whole better. that said, i would be interested in opposing arguments, providing they use sound logic and some awareness of the bible.

thanks for the breath of fresh air!

[upallnite]

well listen, you don't have to believe me. do the research yourself. cross reference jesus words form the accounts of each of the gospels. read a few commentaries by scholars who understand the cultural context and can read it in the original language. then come back here & offer a correction. i will be delighted to hear your thoughts.

The information has been presented in this thread. You appear not to be able to debate the point and tell me to go study. If you want people to take you seriously or believe your claims you have to present evidence not simply tell others to study.

Were you just telling someone else about pride?

but if you're not willing to do any of that reading, then perhaps its possible that someone who has may have a slightly better understanding of the material than you do. perhaps not. only one way to find out, gov'nah...

I have read the Bible and have come to my own opinion of it. You are asking others to except your opinion then telling them to find someone smarter if they disagree with you. This is not how debate works.

Also, this is another time I have to ask you about pride.

and, i'm sorry if i set myself up as a know0it-all. i'm definitely not. but i do read a lot, and i do have a tendency to get upset when i think someone is mis-characterizing scripture. i felt you were. but i'd love to encourage continued constructive dialogue about it.

Now that sounds a lot more like the way you started. We disagree on many things. If you want me (or others) to except your position then you will have to at least give a reason. Perhaps you can share some evidence you have gained thru reading.

i don't want to speak on behalf of every christian. i do want to speak on behalf of what i feel is the integrity of the philosophy of the bible. and while i am no scholar, i have some experience with it...

You want to defend your interpretation of the Bible. I have pointed out evidence that was posted in this thread. You waved your hand and told me to go read some more. You did not even attempt to refute what was posted.

Do you think that is debate or preaching at me?
Do you think that was your wealth of knowledge talking or your pride?

Be careful with that pride, there are grammar nazi's lurking.

[czollers]

sorry upallnite- i was definitely not evading the issue. but you're right, i did not debate it with you. and, you're right i got a little preachy. i think drs has me all hot & bothered. i'll refrain.

i also felt a little that our discussion was taking an ugly turn, and i was trying to dodge that. truth is, i'm not interested in making anyone believe the historical or factual evidence for christian teaching. as i said, i don't care if it happened or not at this point. i believe the philosophies it teaches, and i believe in the god it represents. what i am interested in, is testing those philosophies to see if they hold up. game?

[cnorman18]

Moderator Warning Retracted

The warning has been retracted & removed, and I offer my apologies.

This debate has clearly become one ABOUT preaching and related issues, as opposed to being an example of preaching itself; and so the warning was not appropriate. I should have known better, especially considering my earlier intervention on this very thread.

I have, however, moved the topic to TD&D, which is where it clearly belongs.

[czollers]

thanks!!!!

[drs]

Look you have said that people become like the angels and scripture agrees.

Why do you think the wicked and evil, unbelievers can not become like fallen angels(demons) and do their sentence?

Because becoming like angels is the REWARD!! Christians receive their reward at the Second Coming:

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him. (Isaiah 40:10)

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

If non-believers become like the angels they C-A-N-N-O-T serve their sentence as angels are immortal and cannot be killed! Their sentence is death!

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Drs, if you believe that non-believers suffer eternally in hellfire you have changed the punishment of a simple death as defined by God. If the punishment for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, then for Jesus to become your Savior, Jesus would be presently serving your sentence by burning in hell and would stay there for all eternity. Do you agree or disagree with that, and please explain why or why not.

Thanks.

Okay we our not getting anywhere, because you refuse to believe in the eternal soul.

First things first man is born with a soul.

Last post I asked you, How did Elija go to heaven without dying?

How was that possible?

From begining to end of the OT to the NT the bible speaks of the soul

Every thing CHRIST taught was about you soul/spirit and the flesh is nothing
.
John 6

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.� For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.


Look when CHRIST died and His soul came out He went and preached to the spirirts in prison.

The verse above and this one again show the difference spirit and flesh, death in the flesh alive by the SPIRIT

The SPIRIT gives life to the soul the flesh is nothing.

It is your soul that is reborn not your body.



1 Peter 3

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.




If there is no eternal soul, How did CHRIST go preach to all these souls/spirits in prison?


If you can accept all this then you may be able to accept that spiritual seperation from GOD for all time is death everlasting.

[myth-one.com]

Okay we our not getting anywhere, because you refuse to believe in the eternal soul.

Because it does not exist! Here is it's real origin:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Mankind has accepted Satan's lie as truth ever since. Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated the lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

First things first man is born with a soul.

In the Old Testament, the scriptures inspired by God used the Hebrew word "nephesh" when referring to both man and other animals. In their effort to improve on the inspired words of God, the King James translators decided to change this one word into multiple words, thus distinguishing between man and animals by assigning immortality to man. If two words were required to differentiate between man and the other animals, God would have used two words!

Last post I asked you, How did Elija go to heaven without dying?

If Elijah went to heaven, then Jesus lied when He made the following statement:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

If Jesus lied, you have no Savior because He sinned!! So Drs, did Elijah go to heaven in a whirlwind or did he go up into the heavens to another place on the earth in a whirlwind?

From begining to end of the OT to the NT the bible speaks of the soul

Here's an example:

...the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

It is your soul that is reborn not your body.

I thought you said the soul was immortal? If it is immortal, then it can never die. If it can never die, there is never any requirement to be reborn!

If there is no eternal soul, How did CHRIST go preach to all these souls/spirits in prison?

He didn't as a man, He did that as a spirit:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (I Peter 3:18-19)

These verses you quoted indicated what penalty Jesus paid for our sins: "being put to death in the flesh." He did not have to burn in hell eternally, He simply died. Note that He went to preach to the spirits in prison as a spirit!

If you can accept all this then you may be able to accept that spiritual seperation from GOD for all time is death everlasting.

Now that's comical! For anyone with an "immortal soul," there is no concept of death -- not for one second. That's the definition of immortal -- everlasting life. So you say one can have everlasting life and everlasting death simultaneously?
___________________________________________________________________________________

Drs, if the punishment for sinning is eternal torture in hellfire, then for Jesus to become your Savior, Jesus would presently be burning in hell and would stay there for all eternity. Do you agree or disagree with that, and please explain why or why not.

Second attempt to get an answer. Thanks.