goat wrote:No, Paul was hardly a Jew. He might have claimed he was 'to a jew, he was a jew', but his theology was hardly Jewish.
well, certainly by today's jewish standards, you're right. and maybe even according to some of the jewish political/religious leaders of his day, there may have been disagreement. but paul definitely thought of himself as a jew. he simple believed that jesus was the messiah they had been waiting for, despite the fact that he wasn't the
kind of messiah they were waiting for. when paul taught, he believed he was teaching the law in its fulfilled state. perhaps he was a radical, or a new-wave jew. but he definitely thought of himself as a jew, and of "the way" (the earliest name for the teachings of jesus) as a more complete version of his jewish culture.
Dragon wrote:OK, you have found a role model (Jesus) upon which to base the way you lead your life from now on. That's cool. I'm guessing but I would think that this boils down to being 'a good person' (whatever that might be) roughly in the way that Jesus seems to have been 'a good person'.
Well, I don't have a role model like you but I would be interested to know what you perceive are the qualities of Jesus that you admire so much so that I can compare them to the moral qualities that I try to live up to. In what way do you think they might be different, given that you are a believer and I am an atheist? Or maybe they are very similar - in which case why do you follow a religion and I follow none?
if you're really interested to know, you'd need to read the new testament. the qualities and teachings i admire are too rich & numerous to realistically portray in a single conversation. but a few important ones are humility- that is, putting myself second; grace- forgiving others even when i don't feel like they deserve it, because i know there have been times i have been in shoes similar to theirs; gratitude- if god did create the world then everything in it & about it is his, and i owe him a debt of gratitude for the gift of it... theres so much more.
i have atheist friends who live out morals that in the end look similar on the outside. it's the emotions and relationships behind the morals that matter. wanting to have laws against child abuse isn't all that morally impressive if you want them because it's a smarter way to run a healthy society. we respect those laws because we love our kids, or at least can relate to people who love their kids. the reason behind is everything...
Zzyzx wrote:What can one learn from Jesus that cannot be learned as well or better elsewhere?
given our ability in 2009 to download any book we want, it's easy enough to spread that these teachings out enough to where anyone can write them down and make them look like their own. and in reality, it's not important that they come from jesus. in fact, jesus may have argued that they came from god, and whoever teaches them is doing god's work. claiming copyright was not really jesus' thing.
that said, its been my experience that if the motivation for living this way is not centered on a desire for a relationship with god, then it begins to feel hollow and hypocritical pretty quickly, and less selfless desires begin to take precedence pretty quickly.
Zzyzx wrote:In my observation, any "good person" responds much the same to many life situations – regardless of background or role models. I would venture a guess that faced with a deserving person in critical need of assistance Cnorman, Jester, Bernee, Cathar, Joey (and probably Czollers and Dragon) and I would react similarly – and help as appropriate (without asking for a religious commitment as a condition).
fist, let me say that if anyone needs confirmation of religious affiliation before they do any sort of kindness, they are evidentially wholly unfamiliar with god in general, and jesus especially.
next, i'd probably like to address the term "good person". i realize this derails the forward motion of the thread, but i feel it needs to be dealt with before we can proceed. exactly what makes a person good? where is the line of good? is it good to save a woman from a burning building? is it still good if that woman has had 6 abortions? is it still good if she is a drug addict and a drain on society? if she was going to kill her children the next day is it still good? i bet the men flying planes into building on 9/11 would have described their actions as good.
the problem with trying to be a good person is that you just don't know how good is good enough, or who's version of good is the right one. it is for this reason that there is nothing in the bible that calls us to be good. the two greatest commandments are love god, and love others. thats it! badda-friggin-bing. the notion of being a good person is too broad, and open to interpretation. what kind of god would demand that you be a good person in order to get into heaven, and then not provide you with a detailed list of what that is? not a very loving one i would think. instead, the god of the bible calls us to love him, seek him, and follow him, knowing that if we do, the behavioral issues follow suit.
love your comments -thanks!
