My, God, my God, why?

[placebofactor]

The following will likely open a can of worms. But it’s a subject that must be fully understood, not through the eyes of commentators or religious organizations, but understood by the authority of the Holy Spirit. Before you answer, consider all the details that led up to this moment.

It concerns Matthew 27:46. We find Jesus hanging from the cross, looking down at a mob of Jews, Gentiles, and religious leaders who hated him. These were people he taught, healed, and fed. Before he died, he made two statements. The first,

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The word forsaken means to abandon completely, to turn one’s back on someone, and walk away.

His last words are found in Luke 23:46, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” Then his spirit left him.

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

[JehovahsWitness]

. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth,"

Jesus entrusted his spirit to his FATHER who is in heaven not in the "Lower parts of the earth"

LUKE 23:46

Then Jesus shouted, “Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands!” And with those words he breathed his last

RELATED POSTS


Hebrews 1:17 - Did The Father adresses his son as God?
viewtopic.php?p=1155045#p1155045

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

**

He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lie to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

Is there any other instance where you think Christ said, "My God" as a mere turn of phrase when He was actually addressing other people?

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he said that, they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

I have no issue with Christ fulfilling the prophecy, but I don't know why you think that means He was not calling out to His Father.

Do you think the speaker in the Psalm was calling out to God, or just using "my God" as a turn of phrase?

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

It doesn't make any sense to me to read this verse some other way. The straightforward reading is that Christ is calling to God, His God. Does He not call God, His God, in other places as well?

“Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” John 20:17


Peace again to you!

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

[placebofactor]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

So, are you calling Jesus a liar because he said, John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

He can say it because he is, "1 Timothy 3:16, "God manifest in the flesh."

I made a typing error when I wrote, Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

What I meant is, that his flesh died, and was buried, but his soul and spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

So, are you calling Jesus a liar because he said, John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus wasn't lying at all. I posted what he meant when he said he had the power to bring his life back. You don't want to discuss anything with reasonableness. You don't really read my posts and probably just skim over them quickly and then aim to tear down my beliefs. I gave a reasonable explanation as to what Jesus meant, and it is the truth because dead people don't resurrect themselves. It is ridiculous to say that they can.

[placebofactor]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

So, are you calling Jesus a liar because he said, John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus wasn't lying at all. I posted what he meant when he said he had the power to bring his life back. You don't want to discuss anything with reasonableness. You don't really read my posts and probably just skim over them quickly and then aim to tear down my beliefs. I gave a reasonable explanation as to what Jesus meant, and it is the truth because dead people don't resurrect themselves. It is ridiculous to say that they can.

No, it's not that. I keep telling you, I have been studying your doctrines for the past 40 years. I have direct contact with your elders. I have asked them a million questions and have listened to their answers. My bottom line is this. Because you use the N.W.T. as your foundation Bible. You do not believe Jesus is Jehovah our Creator, Genesis 1:2. Because you claim Jesus is a little "god" like all other little gods. Because you do not believe in the person of the Holy Spirit, we will never, ever, agree on even the most fundamental issues.

I possess all four copywrites of your N.W.T., they sit on my desk in front of me. I possess your Bible aid. I access your website. I possess 500 of your Awake and Watchtower monthly issues and have read everyone of them. I have been open-minded to the Witnesses. Why? Because they are my immediate family. I have been to your Kingdom Halls, your Bible studies, your yearly get-together. I also have friends who are Witnesses. But I am also a researcher. Nothing you have said to me is new, nothing. I have heard in 10,000 over. I disagree with your history and those who have led the Witnesses for the past 150 years.

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

So, are you calling Jesus a liar because he said, John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus wasn't lying at all. I posted what he meant when he said he had the power to bring his life back. You don't want to discuss anything with reasonableness. You don't really read my posts and probably just skim over them quickly and then aim to tear down my beliefs. I gave a reasonable explanation as to what Jesus meant, and it is the truth because dead people don't resurrect themselves. It is ridiculous to say that they can.

No, it's not that. I keep telling you, I have been studying your doctrines for the past 40 years. I have direct contact with your elders. I have asked them a million questions and have listened to their answers. My bottom line is this. Because you use the N.W.T. as your foundation Bible. You do not believe Jesus is Jehovah our Creator, Genesis 1:2. Because you claim Jesus is a little "god" like all other little gods. Because you do not believe in the person of the Holy Spirit, we will never, ever, agree on even the most fundamental issues.

I possess all four copywrites of your N.W.T., they sit on my desk in front of me. I possess your Bible aid. I access your website. I possess 500 of your Awake and Watchtower monthly issues and have read everyone of them. I have been open-minded to the Witnesses. Why? Because they are my immediate family. I have been to your Kingdom Halls, your Bible studies, your yearly get-together. I also have friends who are Witnesses. But I am also a researcher. Nothing you have said to me is new, nothing. I have heard in 10,000 over. I disagree with your history and those who have led the Witnesses for the past 150 years.

I don't expect anything I say to be new to you. I'm just trying to reason with you concerning what you already have been made aware of. We used the King James Version for almost 100 years before the NWT came out, and we still discerned the truth. Of course Jesus is not Jehovah, and I would figure that you were intelligent enough to see that fact. And Jesus is not a "little god." "A god" in John 1:1 means that Jesus was an important, powerful, revered individual. That is all "a god" means. The Greeks in that day understood what that meant, and they didn't look down on Jesus as a "little god." John was concerned in separating the two---the Father and the Word, Jesus. He showed that God has the article "the" which means the one and only, and the Word has no article, meaning he is one of possibly many individuals with great power, though the Word was special, being WITH God and being the conduit through which all things were brought into existence.

[Capbook]

Peace to you,

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

There appear to be two strikingly different statements coming from a dying man, a man who had just suffered the excruciating pain of the cross. Here’s the question: When Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” was he speaking to his Father, or to those who were spitting on him, and mocking him? These were the same people he walked with for 3 ½ years, fed, healed, and showed many signs and wonders to.
Your thoughts.

He says, Himself, who He is speaking to:

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Yes, this is prophecied, but so are many other things. Something prophecied is supposed to later come to pass (if indeed it is a true prophecy.)

He is speaking to His God and Father, the same person He spoke of at John 20:17.

Jesus was speaking to Mary in John 20:17. He was speaking of his Father, but not to him.


He was in anguish and He felt that momentary doubt/fear of being forsaken (something many of us have felt at some time or another, and for much less suffering). But He had to know what that felt like so He could cover even that for us with His blood.

He never doubted that God existed. He only experienced that moment thinking He had been forsaken. Surely, this is something each of us should be able to understand.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Common to all languages, especially here in America. If you ever help a person in need, and later on they betrayed you, or lied to you, the normal response would be, "My God, why did you do that?" Or "My God, why did you say that?"

When Jesus made that statement "My God, My God," the priests of the Temple knew the Psalms well. When he made that statement they now understood who they had murdered. Also, by making that statement, Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecy in Psalms.

Let me leave you with this, if anyone does not believe Jesus is God, then I can understand why they would interpret the verse the way you have.

There is no other way to interpret the verse. You yourself write a good post and then you ruin it all by saying "if anyone does not believe Jesus is God...(etc.)" There is nothing in these last posts that tries to address Jesus as God, so why do you bring it up? He's obviously NOT God, because God cannot die. If He can, then who would be there to resurrect Jesus? A dead man cannot raise himself.

Only the flesh that covered his real person, his spirit person died. His spirit descended to the "Lower parts of the earth," Ephesians 4:9.

Those who believe Jesus is God, our Creator, Savior, and Redeemer understand he never changes. To say the Father had forsaken him is saying God abandoned God, or he abandoned himself.

His Son is in ""The brightness of his Father's glory, and the expressed image of his Father's person, and He (Jesus) upholds all things by the word of his power." To uphold here in Hebrews 1:3, means to be in charge, to direct, to govern. Jesus was God manifest in the Flesh, K.J.B. 1 Timothy 3:16.

John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus' spirit did not die. That spirit is like the breath of God, empowering a person to be a living soul. It is not something within a person that leaves the body in a spirit body at death. The Spirit of God left Jesus when he died, so that he wasn't alive any longer. When the scripture says he went "to the lower parts of the earth," it is referring to Jesus' death and burial in his grave. The Scriptures take poetic license to speak to those who have the ability to take it in the way it was meant. Why on earth would Jesus go to the "lowest parts of the earth," literally? He didn't. He was really dead in his grave. Where else do you think that it was mentioned that Jesus literally went to the lowest parts of the earth? (Jesus, dead in his grave for 3 days.)

Heb. 1:3 doesn't show that Jesus is God. It merely addresses the fact that Jesus has a special role in the existence of the universe. I Timothy 3:16 is translated very badly by the KJV. Other versions say that it was HE that was made manifest, not "God." The verse doesn't show that Jesus is God. "By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...(etc.)" (NASB) Nothing about God there in most versions of the Bible. (Being "godly" doesn't mean one is God.)

Someone who is dead cannot bring himself back to life. That is just foolishness. He is just saying that he laid down his life willingly, by his own power, and he has the right to be resurrected, according to the power and obedience that he showed before he died. God raised Jesus because He was in heaven watching the whole thing and granted Jesus life again. (Phil. 2:8,9)

So, are you calling Jesus a liar because he said, John 10:17-18, Jesus said concerning his death and resurrection, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again." Note the personal pronoun I. "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." This was said before he went to the cross. Only God can make these statements and them make them happen.

Jesus wasn't lying at all. I posted what he meant when he said he had the power to bring his life back. You don't want to discuss anything with reasonableness. You don't really read my posts and probably just skim over them quickly and then aim to tear down my beliefs. I gave a reasonable explanation as to what Jesus meant, and it is the truth because dead people don't resurrect themselves. It is ridiculous to say that they can.

No, it's not that. I keep telling you, I have been studying your doctrines for the past 40 years. I have direct contact with your elders. I have asked them a million questions and have listened to their answers. My bottom line is this. Because you use the N.W.T. as your foundation Bible. You do not believe Jesus is Jehovah our Creator, Genesis 1:2. Because you claim Jesus is a little "god" like all other little gods. Because you do not believe in the person of the Holy Spirit, we will never, ever, agree on even the most fundamental issues.

I possess all four copywrites of your N.W.T., they sit on my desk in front of me. I possess your Bible aid. I access your website. I possess 500 of your Awake and Watchtower monthly issues and have read everyone of them. I have been open-minded to the Witnesses. Why? Because they are my immediate family. I have been to your Kingdom Halls, your Bible studies, your yearly get-together. I also have friends who are Witnesses. But I am also a researcher. Nothing you have said to me is new, nothing. I have heard in 10,000 over. I disagree with your history and those who have led the Witnesses for the past 150 years.

I don't expect anything I say to be new to you. I'm just trying to reason with you concerning what you already have been made aware of. We used the King James Version for almost 100 years before the NWT came out, and we still discerned the truth. Of course Jesus is not Jehovah, and I would figure that you were intelligent enough to see that fact. And Jesus is not a "little god." "A god" in John 1:1 means that Jesus was an important, powerful, revered individual. That is all "a god" means. The Greeks in that day understood what that meant, and they didn't look down on Jesus as a "little god." John was concerned in separating the two---the Father and the Word, Jesus. He showed that God has the article "the" which means the one and only, and the Word has no article, meaning he is one of possibly many individuals with great power, though the Word was special, being WITH God and being the conduit through which all things were brought into existence.

I maybe would think that NWT already exist before you were born, and that most probably you are most expose and taught to it than the early JW believers. If Jesus as "a god and not a true God to JWs", why you worship and serve Him?
Jesus had said, worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve?
Whose words would you only obey? Jesus or the Father?

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[JehovahsWitness]

If Jesus as "a god and not a true God to JWs", why you worship and serve Him?

So you believe Jesus is a true God?

[Capbook]

If Jesus as "a god and not a true God to JWs", why you worship and serve Him?

So you believe Jesus is a true God?

Yes, you worship Him right?
Why disobey His words in Mat 4:10?
Whose words would you only obey? Jesus or the Father?