Is Christmas 'pagan'?

[historia]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

[slowrider]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

You didn't answer my question when I asked how can Jesus, who is the Truth, be linked with traditions of untruths and confusion?

What traditions of untruths and confusion are you referring too?

[slowrider]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

I also ask you what pagan rituals do JWs keep?

They disobey God.

[onewithhim]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

I also ask you what pagan rituals do JWs keep?

They disobey God.

What are the pagan rituals they keep? I guess you don't really have an answer.

[William]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

Define pagan. (Does it have something to do with what Christians shouldn't do?)

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #5]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believe the origins of a celebration can disqualify it as a suitable celebration for Christians regardless of how it is presently viewed. In short, biblically, Christians cannot claim, rename and rebrand a pagan celebration and in doing so "sanctify" it to a higher purpose.

Viewing something as "pagan" if any of its features have links to non-Christian origins—provides a framework that could be applied not only to Christmas but also to the story of Christ itself. If we examine the narrative of Christ through this lens, we can indeed identify certain elements that resonate with pre-existing pagan beliefs or mythologies. Here's a detailed analysis:

1. Virgin Birth:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Egyptian Mythology: Horus, born of the virgin Isis, is often cited as a precursor to the virgin birth narrative.
Greek Mythology: Perseus was born to Danaë, impregnated by Zeus in the form of a golden shower.
Roman Mythology: Romulus and Remus, founders of Rome, had a divine lineage attributed to Mars, the god of war.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The concept of a miraculous or virgin birth is not unique to Christianity and may reflect a broader cultural motif of divine figures being born in extraordinary ways.

2. Resurrection and Immortality:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Osiris (Egyptian Mythology): Osiris was resurrected by Isis after being killed and dismembered, symbolizing rebirth and eternal life.
Mithras (Persian/Roman Cults): Mithras’ death and return to life were celebrated in some variations of the mystery religion.
Adonis (Greek Mythology): Adonis, associated with death and rebirth, was mourned and celebrated cyclically in ancient Greek rituals.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

The idea of dying and rising gods predates Christianity and suggests thematic parallels that could be labeled as "pagan" under JW’s reasoning.

3. Sacrificial Death:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sacrificial Kingship: Many ancient cultures, including the Celts and Mesoamericans, had rituals involving the sacrificial death of a king or representative to ensure fertility, renewal, or divine favor.
Prometheus (Greek Mythology): Prometheus’ suffering for humanity (chained to a rock, liver eaten by an eagle daily) mirrors themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good.
Implications for JW’s Definition:

Christ’s sacrificial death could be viewed as part of a universal mythological archetype rather than entirely unique to Christianity.

4. Symbolism of Light and Birth of a Savior:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Sol Invictus (Roman Religion): The celebration of the "unconquered sun" on December 25th symbolizes the rebirth of light, paralleling the Christian imagery of Christ as the "light of the world."
Zoroastrianism: The savior figure Saoshyant was prophesied to bring salvation and renewal to the world, echoing messianic themes in Christianity.

Implications re JW definition:

The alignment of Christ's nativity with motifs of light and savior figures could be classified as having "pagan" origins.

5. Baptism and Water Rituals:
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mystery Religions: Baptism-like purification rites were practiced in mystery religions such as those dedicated to Isis, Mithras, and Dionysus.
Hinduism: Ritual immersion in sacred rivers predates Christianity and serves as a form of spiritual cleansing.

Implications re your JW definition:

The symbolism of water and baptism in Christianity echoes these earlier practices.

6. The Eucharist (Communal Meal):
Pre-Christian Parallels:

Mithraic Rituals: The followers of Mithras participated in a sacred communal meal involving bread and wine, symbolizing unity with the deity.
Dionysian Cults: Wine, symbolizing the blood of Dionysus, was central to rituals celebrating the god’s presence in the material world.

Implications for JW’s Definition:

The Eucharist could be interpreted as incorporating motifs from earlier sacred meal traditions.
JW's Framework Applied to Christ’s Story:

Under the Jehovah's Witness Religion's reasoning, these parallels could render aspects of the Christ narrative "pagan" because they reflect themes, symbols, or practices present in pre-Christian cultures.

Challenges re this reasoning:
Shared Human Archetypes:

Many of these "pagan" elements could reflect universal human archetypes rather than direct borrowing. Myths and rituals often address common existential themes, such as birth, death, renewal, and salvation.

Theological Reinterpretation:

Christianity often repurposes existing symbols, infusing them with new meanings that align with its theology (e.g., Christ as the fulfillment of archetypal savior figures).

Historical Context:

The presence of similar themes does not necessarily imply derivation; independent cultural evolution could explain parallel developments.

Conclusion:
The "JW" framework leads to identifying numerous "pagan" elements in the story of Christ when traced back to earlier traditions. However, whether this diminishes their validity within Christianity depends on whether one views these elements as inherently pagan or as universals reinterpreted within a Christian context.
______________________

My thoughts re that - if Jehovah is as claimed, why would He use and refine pre existing beliefs as pointers, rather than produce something purely unique to any prior form of human belief systems?

What would be the overall “pointer” explanation for this being the case?

1. Incarnational Theology. (Meeting Humanity Where They Are.)
2. Humanity’s Innate Search for God
3. Respect for Free Will and Human Agency
4. Historical and Cultural Integration
5. The Ultimate Goal Transformation Over Novelty?
6. Mystery and Humility

Summary of the overall points re the "pointer".
Jehovah's engagement with pre-existing beliefs might not reflect a lack of originality but rather a deliberate strategy to:

Meet humanity where they are culturally and spiritually.
Build on universal human archetypes that reflect deep, shared longings.
Allow for free will, gradual understanding, and personal transformation.
Demonstrate continuity and sovereignty over all history and cultures.
Focus on transformation and fulfillment rather than novelty.
In this view, the use of pre-existing systems as pointers underscores God’s relational nature and His desire to draw humanity to Himself in a way that is both accessible and transformative.

All JW stance I have encountered tells me that such stance causes a struggle to reconcile within those practitioners. The struggle appears real. It leaves me wondering if they really know the one they claim to be witnessing (on behalf of).

[otseng]

Your opinion of what anyone should or should not do concerning
when or how anyone celebrates the birthday of Jesus is not only pointless but meaningless
to anyone who is not under your authority or household. So why even post it?

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[slowrider]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

I also ask you what pagan rituals do JWs keep?

They disobey God.

What are the pagan rituals they keep? I guess you don't really have an answer.

Not any you would receive for you know not that you know not.
After all you are on here telling people who want or do celebrate the birth of Christ
is a pagan ritual. My oh my you are in for rude awakening very soon.

[onewithhim]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

I also ask you what pagan rituals do JWs keep?

They disobey God.

What are the pagan rituals they keep? I guess you don't really have an answer.

Not any you would receive for you know not that you know not.
After all you are on here telling people who want or do celebrate the birth of Christ
is a pagan ritual. My oh my you are in for rude awakening very soon.

My oh my, you have no answer. Only threats. If I "know not," why don't you inform me?

[historia]

Define pagan.

By 'pagan' here I mean beliefs and practices relating to ancient, ethnic religions other than Judaism.

JehovahsWitness offered a broader definition above:

if its not biblical its pagan

It seems to me we need more than just two categories here. If Christians develop traditions that are not explicitly described in the Bible, those could rightly be called 'non-biblical' (or, maybe better, 'extra-biblical'), but it would be confusing, to say the least, to call them 'pagan'. Those traditions are still Christian traditions, especially if they are not derived from earlier non-Jewish ethnic religious beliefs and practices.

[historia]

The traditions of Christmas are pagan and are part of the "darkness."

What historical evidence do you think supports this claim?