Is Christmas 'pagan'?

[historia]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

[historia]

So for example taking triggers reference ...

"December 25 was already a major festival in the pagan Roman world, the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or Birthday of the Unconquered Sun, falling within the week-long celebration of Saturnalia, a feast honoring the renewal of the sun at the winter solstice. Pagan celebrations on December 25 had included feasting, dancing, lighting bonfires, decorating homes with greens, and giving gifts. So when this became a Christian festival, the customs continued, but with a Christian meaning imparted to them. - p. 414, Vol. 4, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, Inc., 1966.

You are asking to see the historical manuscripts featuring / explaining the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or archaeological artifacts and other physical evidence that the various activites mentioned in the Encyclopedia International's entry are actual historical facts. Is that what you are asking?

Yes. Although, to be clear, I don't need to see pictures of manuscripts, or anything like that. And there's unlikely to be much in the way of archeological evidence on this topic.

Rather, I'm interested in what ancient and Medieval sources support these claims that Christmas is "pagan." If there are any, you need merely reference the historical document in the same way that, for example, Difflugia cited the Chronograph of 354 in post #2 or bjs cited Sextus Julius Africanus' Chronographiai in post #10.

We also need to critically assess who is making these claims. Consider, for example, that the author of this entry on "Christmas" in this old Grolier Encyclopedia that tigger2 quoted above was a woman named Elizabeth M. Downie. Volume 20, pg. ix, of that Encyclopedia set gives her bio as: "Downie, Elizabeth M., B.A., Director of Christian Education, Grace Church, Mount Clements, Mich.; former Director of Religious Education, Rosemary Hall, Greenwich, Conn."

In other words, this entry was not written by an historian or scholar of ancient history. Downie didn't even possess a Master's degree, let alone a Ph.D. Rather, she was merely a former high school teacher and head of her local church's educational program. I have no doubt she meant well and tried, to the best of her ability, to be accurate. But we should take any claim she makes with a grain of salt, as she was decidedly not an expert on this topic.

tigger2 also left out parts of the quote, which I restored in bold above. That sentence on Saturnalia is factually incorrect -- perhaps why he ommited it? -- since, at its height, Saturnalia ran from December 17-23. Any ancient Roman celebrations on December 25 were therefore two days after Saturnalia. That's not the only thing Downie gets wrong here.

[slowrider]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

[onewithhim]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

[slowrider]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are asking to see the historical manuscripts ... Is that what you are asking?

Yes. Although, to be clear, I don't need to see pictures of manuscripts, or anything like that. . ... Rather, I'm interested in what ancient and Medieval sources support these claims ...

Well to be honest , I think most of us are trusting in the peer review system that reputable enclyclpedia, historical papiers and published sources are open to. I think it unlikely that all such works have yielded to a collective myth without any first sources, but I have lived through Covid so I have no illusions as to the possibility of the collapse of the historical method having effectively witnessed the undermining, if not the total collapse , of the scientific peer review system we all take for granted.

Since our position as Jehovah's Witnesses is primarily based on the bible ( ie. if its not biblical its pagan and if we find a pagan practice religiously objectionable for any reason we will not participate - we view setting up a mass not requested by Jesus, to celebrate his birth objectionable ) then you may understand why I have not spend much time checking and analysing first sources connected with Christmas celebrations.

Generally speaking, the best historical papiers will footnote to first sources which may or may not be behind a paywall, so compiling such a list might be an interesting project. I will keep a eye open in future including going through my old posts and checking if the documents refered to, footnote first sources*.

* Whatever the shortcomings of Wikipedia, it does at least usually link to sources which sometimes eventually lead to first source.


Regards

JW

[Revelations won]

To all respondents,


While some early Church claimed to be Christian, there is no evidence that the earliest christians in biblical times have selected a December date to celebrate the birth of Christ.

We should also remember that the more correct date of Christs birth may have been in Mach or April, since the Shepards were out feeding their flocks at that time. (The grasses are not growing in December. The grasses are usually growing in March or April).

Sometimes we find that tradition replaces history. For example it is very obvious that the wise men were not present at the birth of christ. I fact it may have been nearly 2 years before their long journey was completed and they visited the "young child".

[slowrider]

To all respondents,


While some early Church claimed to be Christian, there is no evidence that the earliest christians in biblical times have selected a December date to celebrate the birth of Christ.

We should also remember that the more correct date of Christs birth may have been in Mach or April, since the Shepards were out feeding their flocks at that time. (The grasses are not growing in December. The grasses are usually growing in March or April).

Sometimes we find that tradition replaces history. For example it is very obvious that the wise men were not present at the birth of christ. I fact it may have been nearly 2 years before their long journey was completed and they visited the "young child".

Your opinion of what anyone should or should not do concerning
when or how anyone celebrates the birthday of Jesus is not only pointless but meaningless
to anyone who is not under your authority or household. So why even post it?

[historia]

Well to be honest , I think most of us are trusting in the peer review system that reputable enclyclpedia, historical papiers and published sources are open to. I think it unlikely that all such works have yielded to a collective myth without any first sources, but I have lived through Covid so I have no illusions as to the possibility of the collapse of the historical method having effectively witnessed the undermining, if not the total collapse , of the scientific peer review system we all take for granted.

Oh, it is not my contention here that all published works on this topic are hopelessly mired in myth.

Far from it! Much of the recent, peer-reviewed scholarship on this issue is actually quite critical of these older, 19th-Century theories about Christians adapting Christmas from prior pagan holidays and customs. The works of Steven Hijmans, an archeologist at the University of Alberta, and Philipp Nothaft, an historian at Oxford, in particular, provide useful correctives on that point.

This is also reflected in more recently updated Encyclopedias. The entries for "Christmas" in the Encyclopedia Britannica and Wikipedia, for example, provide rather cautious and nuanced descriptions of the origin of the celebration of Christmas, noting that there are several speculative theories as to how it developed. That stands in rather stark contrast to the older Grolier encyclopedia article quoted above that just uncritically repeats one of those speculative theories as if it was a fact.

I definitely appreciate your point here that we are, at almost every turn, reliant on experts in our understandings of history (and many other subjects). But it seems to me that, if we are forced to choose between a more recent Encyclopedia article written by an expert -- that Britannica article was written by Hans Hillebrand, a former history and religion professor from Duke University -- and an older one written by a non-expert -- like the one tigger2 quoted -- the former is clearly preferable.

So, I'm not asking you to abandon all hope in scholarship and the peer-review process! I'm simply advocating for more recent scholarship over older, and possibly outdated, scholarship. And also not asserting as fact speculative theories that are based on insufficient evidence -- especially when those theories just so happen to bolster one's prior beliefs. (Perhaps that resonates with your concerns about health officials and COVID, as well.)

[historia]

[T]here is no evidence that the earliest christians in biblical times have selected a December date to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Okay, but what does that have to do with the questions posed in the OP? If Christians in the late-3rd or early-4th Centuries decided to start celebrating the birth of Christ on January 6 or December 25, that still makes it a Christian holiday, not a "pagan" one.

We should also remember that the more correct date of Christs birth may have been in Mach or April, since the Shepards were out feeding their flocks at that time. (The grasses are not growing in December. The grasses are usually growing in March or April).

I don't think anyone in this forum thinks Jesus was likely born on December 25. That is simply the day that most Christian churches have decided to hold the annual liturgical celebration that commemorates his birth. The Armenian Church, on the other hand, celebrates it on January 6.

Just like most Christian churches hold annual celebrations for other events of Jesus' life on various dates throughout the calendar year -- including Gabriel's announcement to Mary that she would be pregnant, Jesus' presentation in the Temple, his baptism, his transfiguration, etc. -- even though we don't have much information about what year, let alone what month or day, each of those events may have occurred.

Sometimes we find that tradition replaces history. For example it is very obvious that the wise men were not present at the birth of christ. I fact it may have been nearly 2 years before their long journey was completed and they visited the "young child".

In most Christian churches, the coming of the wise men is celebrated on Epiphany, January 6, not on Christmas, December 25, in part as an acknowledgement that this is a later event as depicted in Matthew's gospel.

[onewithhim]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

There is no sin in celebrating the birth of Christ.
In fact it is a blessing.

A blessing to associate Jesus' truth (John 14:6) with pagan traditions? What fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinth. 6:14-17) How do you think Jesus feels about being linked to unchristian mythology?

The question is how do you think Jesus feels about you
telling other people that what they do is a pagan ritual
when you yourself keeps all kinds of pagan rituals.

You didn't answer my question when I asked how can Jesus, who is the Truth, be linked with traditions of untruths and confusion? I also ask you what pagan rituals do JWs keep?