"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[tam]

Peace,

[Replying to tam in post #436]

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

And as you have also said in passing, you wouldn't expect that this means they have to hear a voice in their head calling itself Christ. You have agreed in principle that there are any number of ways someone can have "ears to hear"...

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

William, to the question of how He speaks, this is what I have said:

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.

viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

[JehovahsWitness]

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

'And remember, in My church, no one will stand to explain the holy scriptures or lead people as they explain, and they will stand as pastors, because in My church, I am the only Pastor who stands before you. Remember, when two or three discuss Me without any argument, I am in their midst.'

The above is YOUR "bible" (meaning your collection of written words that you claim come from God).

You claim that God spoke to you. You heard his words. You wrote what you heard down and you are now copying the words that you heard from God into this post. When we read what you posted we are therefore reading the words of God. The bible canon follows the same pattern as your "bible".

There is no reason to think that your "bible" quotations are accurate or even from a reliable source. The only difference between your written words you claim from God (your bible) and the real bible canon is that your personal "bible quotations" (written words you claim originated with Jesus) are not authoritative. They therefore cannot settle anything when it comes to what is true and what is not.

Since you encourage people to break free from the written words of God as witnessed by Moses, the Prophets and the Apostles that witnessed Jesus (the bible canon) ...., shouldn't you stop quoting your own "bible" (the "written words of God" as witnessed by YOU)?

[JehovahsWitness]

continued .../




CAN THE DEVIL CLAIM TO BE YAHWEH ?

While again, it would be wrong to impose arbitrary phrases that the Devil supposedly cannot utter, there is one fact that is undeniable: the God of Abraham identified himself by one personal name alone, namely YHWH (transliterated in various languages as "Yahweh" or (English Jehovah). Note the eyewitness testimony of the Prophet MOSES

Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’+ What should I say to them?” ... 15 b God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah [יהוה transliterated as YHWH /Yahweh] the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham,+ the God of Isaac,+ and the God of Jacob,+ has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever

The divine name (YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah) is mentioned more than ANY other name in scripture over 6,000 times and is exclusively used to identify the God of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets. YHWH appears in the testimonies of scripture more than the name "Jesus" , more than the name "Emmanuel" more than the title "God" or "Almighty" or "Almighty God". It is, according to his own the verbatim words his "name forever". Like Moses then, it might be reasonable to ask any supernatural spirit claiming to be the Almighty "what is your name?"

How should one respond when being reprimanded for including one's own "personal words" in a post when sharing Christ's message ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187649#p1187649

Come and talk to God today and hear from Him the truth about His name .... Bear in mind that you've heard nothing yet from God, and all you have are just biblical passages .....

How do you know I have "heard nothing from God"? what does that even mean? You say this often to anyone that presents valid counterarguments but you never explain what you mean .... please explain what you mean by that expression. "you have heard nothing from God" and what would that change vis-a-vis the point above?

[tam]

Peace again,

[Replying to tam in post #440]

I thought I would post this from a theologian of our time, who is one of the hundreds upon hundreds who never claim to hear from Jesus directly, who have dedicated their lives to Christ and His Gospel, along with the scripture, who had given us great, and wonderful insights. I would highly recommend his book, "Putting Amazing Back into Grace" and or any of the other books he has authored.

Theologians are just men, Jack, same as you or me.

"It’s not a question of what God can do, but what he’s promised to do. Tomorrow morning, Jesus could speak to me in audible words outside of Scripture, but why to me and not to someone else?

Is that question supposed to nullify the Word of God?

Because the Word of God said that His sheep listen to His voice, that He has more sheep to call, that they too will listen to His voice, that His sheep follow Him because they know His voice.

Scripture is a public book that may be accessed anytime. Jesus, who rose again publicly in history, certified the Old Testament and commissioned his apostles to speak his words in his name. Preaching is a public event. This public character of the gospel distinguishes Christianity from every other religion.

Not sure what the man is talking about here regarding public book or preaching... the Quran is a public book that may be accessed anytime. Islam is a public religion. Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism - all public religions with 'holy books' that can be accessed anytime, and have public preachers/imams/rabbis.

But there were multiple witnesses to the risen Christ, yes. Multiple people testified to this (as opposed to, say, Joseph Smith alone testifying to the golden plates.)

Now to the defense. To be sure, there are myriad examples of God speaking directly to people in the Old and New Testaments.

God and His Son (mostly His Son in the NT.)

You see how he says 'to be sure' though? Clearly, he cannot deny this happened (and this happened with more than just the apostles or those they 'laid hands' upon). But he is going to attempt to dismiss it or brush it aside.

After all, that’s how we got Scripture in the first place. However, Jesus equated the words of the prophets with the very word of God and submitted himself to the Scriptures (Mt 4:4, 7, 10; 5:17-20; 19:4-6; 26:31, 52-54; Lk 4:16-21; 16:17; 18:31-33; 22:37; 24:25-27, 45-47; Jn 10:35-38).

Christ did not 'submit Himself to the scriptures.' He submitted Himself to His Father. He, Himself, is the Word of God.

But even with the scriptures written, Christ still spoke to people - both before and after His ascension. The scriptures could not have told Phillip to go specifically to the Ethiopian. The scriptures were not enough for Peter to understand and accept that Gentiles were also invited into the new covenant.

The scriptures did not stop Paul from persecuting the early church.

The scriptures could not have told Ananais to go to Paul afterward.

Christ did these things - and He is still doing these things today.

Yet these theologians - these men you look to - they teach that this power is gone.

Jack, just because these theologians do not hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, does not mean He does not speak.

He also drew a qualitative distinction between “word of God” and “the tradition of the elders” (Mt 15:2, 6).

Indeed.

Just as the prophetic era was followed by the teachers (rabbis) who interpreted their inspired writing, the apostolic era was followed by pastors and teachers.

Did Christ not say 'woe' to the teachers of the law? The scribes? The Pharisees?

Compare also to what Christ said here:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matt 23:8

Compare it even to what John said about needing men to teach us:

But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. 1 John 2:27

Churches of the Reformation hold that when this Word is faithfully preached, Christ himself speaks. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17).

Hearing through the word of whom?

It is through the preaching of the gospel that the Spirit creates and sustains our faith in Christ (Is 55:10-11; Ezek 37; Acts 2:14-36; Rom 1:16; 2 Cor 4:3, 6; 1 Pet 1:23-25).

Just taking that last reference, 1 Peter 1:23

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The Word of God who is alive... is the Christ.

People are born again through Christ.

Not through the bible.

In short, as Luther and Calvin both said, to look for another path, another means of communication from our Lord, is to “seek him outside the way.

”

By "Lord" are they referring to God or to His Son?

Because Christ is Himself the Way.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
"No one comes to the Father except through me."

Seeking and listening to Christ cannot mean 'seeking Him (God) outside the way.' It also cannot mean seeking Christ 'outside the way', because Christ is Himself the Way.

The only safe place to find a holy God in mercy, clothed in his gospel, is where he has promised to meet us in peace.

Can you quote this promise, please?



Peace again to you.

[William]

Peace,

[Replying to tam in post #436]

I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.

And as you have also said in passing, you wouldn't expect that this means they have to hear a voice in their head calling itself Christ. You have agreed in principle that there are any number of ways someone can have "ears to hear"...

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

Still waiting for your reply to this tam.

William, to the question of how He speaks, this is what I have said:

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.

viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

Well yes tam, but that is all about you. That was not the intention of my question - to ask you the ways in which Christ speaks to you. My question was asked to ascertain whether you think Christ speaks with others - in whatever ways he will.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #464]

Do you think Christ wanted you to call yourself a "Christian" not just to show that you were not ashamed of him, but also so that you could tell others calling themselves Christians, where they were incorrect about their NOT understanding things the way that you understand them?

[William]

Christ: Pleasantries extended to you and yours.

Me: Ideally.

Christ: One can commune with the gods as long as the overall subject is GOD viewtopic.php?p=1108921#p1108921

Me: Where I wrote

"Those concepts of YHVH are generally stories told about some of those who were claimed by the story-tellers to have had a relationship with YHVH while being Human.
However, as those stories also indicate, YHVH is real and as such, moves beyond the boarders of human institutions built upon those stories.

YHVH would still exist without the bible telling it so. Other cultures also show YHVH's influence, even that those cultures call GOD, by another name/other names.

Thus YHVH [or whatever name we give to that real sentient being] could never have been ignored re the development/growth of Human Personalities. GOD-Concepts would very much still exist, whatever the forms these took on..."

I think this is what I am seeing - even among Christians there is contention as to who is listening to who and which "god" is legit that the personality is channeling - be the personality a biblical figure or a cultural Christian...

Christ: The Babel Fish & Universal Translation (Douglas Adams’ Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy)

Me: The Babel Fish - coined by Douglas Adams in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy - is a small, yellow, leech-like creature that feeds on brainwave energy and excretes telepathic translations directly into the host's mind, allowing for instant understanding of any spoken language.
It is an irreverent way to explain what goes on in individual minds - the irony being that the fish is named "babble" but its operating function seeks to dissolve the problem that the babble story inflicted upon human culture...

Christ: viewtopic.php?p=1105149#p1105149
Welcoming answer

Me: Oh yes - that is the post I was looking for - the one where tam tells me that she has "held up" the verbatim conversations I share to you and your words and the result is conflict (battle)

Christ: Superior Credibility

[OneJack]

continued .../




CAN THE DEVIL CLAIM TO BE YAHWEH ?

While again, it would be wrong to impose arbitrary phrases that the Devil supposedly cannot utter, there is one fact that is undeniable: the God of Abraham identified himself by one personal name alone, namely YHWH (transliterated in various languages as "Yahweh" or (English Jehovah). Note the eyewitness testimony of the Prophet MOSES

Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’+ What should I say to them?” ... 15 b God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah [יהוה transliterated as YHWH /Yahweh] the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham,+ the God of Isaac,+ and the God of Jacob,+ has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever

The divine name (YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah) is mentioned more than ANY other name in scripture over 6,000 times and is exclusively used to identify the God of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets. YHWH appears in the testimonies of scripture more than the name "Jesus" , more than the name "Emmanuel" more than the title "God" or "Almighty" or "Almighty God". It is, according to his own the verbatim words his "name forever". Like Moses then, it might be reasonable to ask any supernatural spirit claiming to be the Almighty "what is your name?"

How should one respond when being reprimanded for including one's own "personal words" in a post when sharing Christ's message ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187649#p1187649

Come and talk to God today and hear from Him the truth about His name .... Bear in mind that you've heard nothing yet from God, and all you have are just biblical passages .....

How do you know I have "heard nothing from God"? what does that even mean? You say this often to anyone that presents valid counterarguments but you never explain what you mean .... please explain what you mean by that expression. "you have heard nothing from God" and what would that change vis-a-vis the point above?

Take it literally, you've heard and learned nothing yet from God, based on a truckload of narratives you've written in your posts, plus you can't recognize the words uttered by the Lord Jesus [to us], which you erratically accused of being demonic in totality. You're biblically obsessed with all your responses and arguments, especially on the name of the Almighty God, which is YHWH, or Jesus, or Hesus, or Yahweh, but not Jehovah, as the Lord confirmed to us.

[OneJack]

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

'And remember, in My church, no one will stand to explain the holy scriptures or lead people as they explain, and they will stand as pastors, because in My church, I am the only Pastor who stands before you. Remember, when two or three discuss Me without any argument, I am in their midst.'

The above is YOUR "bible" (meaning your collection of written words that you claim come from God).

You claim that God spoke to you. You heard his words. You wrote what you heard down and you are now copying the words that you heard from God into this post. When we read what you posted we are therefore reading the words of God. The bible canon follows the same pattern as your "bible".

The bible and the messages from the Lord that I posted bear witness to the Lord Jesus Christ; both are testimonies to Jesus that He truly exists so that all may come to Him to be saved, no more, no less.

There is no reason to think that your "bible" quotations are accurate or even from a reliable source. The only difference between your written words you claim from God (your bible) and the real bible canon is that your personal "bible quotations" (written words you claim originated with Jesus) are not authoritative. They therefore cannot settle anything when it comes to what is true and what is not.

The bible and any other scriptures, together with the utterances of the Lord in 2001, have no authority at all to what is true and what is not; the Lord God Jesus Christ is the only one in authority, as far as this issue is concerned.

Since you encourage people to break free from the written words of God as witnessed by Moses, the Prophets and the Apostles that witnessed Jesus (the bible canon) ...., shouldn't you stop quoting your own "bible" (the "written words of God" as witnessed by YOU)?

I quoted them as testimonies to the Lord, but you have to take nothing from it for you to put into practice. Why do you seem to be deeply troubled by those messages from the Lord?

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #463]

יהוה‎: William

ף (Speech - communication)

(People hide their sins from each other.)

“We could listen to the child that we are - The one that hides inside and let’s the adults do the thinking”

Me: How about that… “that ship is sinking”…

יהוה‎: Wall-E

Celebration

god, goD, gOD, God, GOd, GOD

Me: The evolution of theistic thinking…

יהוה‎: It’s Our Nature

Most folk need moderating.

Yah-yah-yah-wah

Me: Interesting. Given the current discussion between JW and OJ in this thread - they recognise the differences and ignore the similarities they both have. I think this is the underlying thing about cultural christians - it is a thing - and of course not just a thing christians do with/to one another…all too busy looking for the “flaws” in the body rather than finding what part each and all play in the whole.

And - JW simply ignores my questions about the idea that the devil can imitate the things of GOD and therein deceive the unwary (those who don’t believe such a thing) and how this belief works against everything theistic including the bible content - even that some author thought it prudent to add such a concept as a “truth” and others chose to add the author's belief into the biblical canon….

יהוה‎: Teaching

viewtopic.php?p=1119403#p1119403

Me: The key debate points regarding whether Jesus is a mediator only for the “anointed class” of Jehovah’s Witnesses:

Main Argument (from user “onewithhim”):
Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, which is made specifically with the “anointed class” (the 144,000 who will rule in heaven). Therefore, Jesus acts as the direct mediator only for this group. However, the benefits of this covenant and Jesus’ role as mediator extend by extension to the “other sheep” (the great crowd of JWs who will live on a paradise Earth). Most of the New Testament is directed toward the anointed, but verses like 1 Timothy 2:5 apply to all followers in a secondary sense.

Counter-Arguments & Nuances:

User “RW”: Argues that Christ’s gospel was first for the “lost sheep of Israel” (Matthew 15:24), but was later opened to all Gentiles. This challenges the idea that his role as mediator is permanently limited to a specific “anointed class.”

User “Eloi”: Explains the JW position in more detail. The new covenant (Hebrews 12:24) is exclusive to the anointed priests in heaven. Jesus mediates directly between Jehovah and that class. However, the “great crowd” (Revelation 7:9) on earth are indirect beneficiaries of that priestly service, similar to how ancient Israel benefited from the exclusive covenant with the Levite priests. The anointed are the “firstfruits” (Revelation 14:4), not the only beneficiaries.

User “Miles”: Challenges the literal ancestry of the 144,000 as listed in Revelation 7, questioning how modern JWs (including the Governing Body) could have literal tribal lineage from ancient Israel.

User “Eloi” (in response): Clarifies that the 12 tribe names in Revelation 7 (e.g., Joseph) are symbolic, not literal, and do not match the 12 tribes of carnal Israel. The number 144,000 is taken literally, but the tribal names represent spiritual characteristics.

User “ttruscott”: Criticizes the complexity of such distinctions. He points to the plain meaning of 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (”one mediator between God and men... a ransom for all”) and argues that Jesus’ message was simple and inclusive, not stratified into “anointed” and “other sheep.” He views such teachings as creating unnecessary division and “stumbling blocks.”

יהוה‎ : “Many hands make light work.” Contemplate that thought
------

Element:
"People hide their sins from each other"
Significance:
A direct observation about human nature — relevant to tam hiding her verbatim messages behind piety

Element:
"We could listen to the child that we are..."
Significance:
Echoes the earlier points about shame, hiding, and the authentic self - tam's shame about Christianity may be a mask

Element:
"Wall-E / Celebration / god, goD, gOD, God, GOd, GOD"
Significance:
The evolution of theistic thinking from primitive to mature - tam remains fixed at one stage

Element:
"It's Our Nature / Most folk need moderating / Yah-yah-yah-wah"
Significance:
Gentle humor about human fixation on names and tribal identities - RWJ, JW, OJ, tam all doing the same thing

Element:
My observation about JW and OJ dynamic
Significance:
They see differences, ignore similarities - exactly what tam does with other Christians

Element:
My observations and questions to JW about the devil imitating GOD and JW ignoring these.
Significance:
JW ignores this - because it undermines his certainty, just as tam ignores questions that undermine her certainty

Element:
YHWH: "Many hands make light work"
Significance:
The capstone - a proverb about cooperation, humility, and shared labor. The opposite of solitary, exclusive, superior claims.

Key Takeaway:
Stop hiding, stop pretending superiority, and start working together.