"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"

[Zzyzx]

Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?

If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?

If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?

What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?

[OneJack]

continued .../




CAN THE DEVIL CLAIM TO BE YAHWEH ?

While again, it would be wrong to impose arbitrary phrases that the Devil supposedly cannot utter, there is one fact that is undeniable: the God of Abraham identified himself by one personal name alone, namely YHWH (transliterated in various languages as "Yahweh" or (English Jehovah). Note the eyewitness testimony of the Prophet MOSES

Moses said to the true God: “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’+ What should I say to them?” ... 15 b God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah [יהוה transliterated as YHWH /Yahweh] the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham,+ the God of Isaac,+ and the God of Jacob,+ has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever

The divine name (YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah) is mentioned more than ANY other name in scripture over 6,000 times and is exclusively used to identify the God of Abraham, Moses and the Prophets. YHWH appears in the testimonies of scripture more than the name "Jesus" , more than the name "Emmanuel" more than the title "God" or "Almighty" or "Almighty God". It is, according to his own the verbatim words his "name forever". Like Moses then, it might be reasonable to ask any supernatural spirit claiming to be the Almighty "what is your name?"

How should one respond when being reprimanded for including one's own "personal words" in a post when sharing Christ's message ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187649#p1187649

Come and talk to God today and hear from Him the truth about His name, whether your opinion above is correct or not. Bear in mind that you've heard nothing yet from God, and all you have are just biblical passages, which are not the Lord God. The Lord God acknowledges the name Jesus and Hesus, but does not acknowledge Jehovah as His name.

[OneJack]

In short if someone were to ask the Devil "are you really Jesus ?" or "Are you really the Lord God who created the heavens and earth, and all things." OBVIOUSLY the Devil will say "I am" because the Devil is a LIAR

This would only be true if you were the Devil. Your ill experience with the spiritual quest for God drags you into your own world of falsehood.

Are you suggeting that the verbatim statement of Jesus that the devil quote "is a liar" is false? (This is my question to you, not a verbatim quote of you, I am trying to understand if you admit or deny that the devil is a liar)

Read again to see that the phrase, 'the devil is a liar,' is not the exact point where my response was directed to.

[OneJack]

The words that God had spoken in the context of the biblical passages you take into consideration, which the Lord Jesus reminded his audience of.

I asked you a question because you seemed to be agreeing (as true) the following...

... The Lord reminded His listeners of the words that God had spoken and were written in the scriptures.

If that is a misunderstanding on my part and you believe the above to be FALSE just respond with the words "the above is false" and I will understand your position.













JW


How should one respond when being reprimanded for including one's own "personal words" in a post when sharing Christ's message ?
viewtopic.php?p=1187649#p1187649

Erase everything ang post your question only.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I'm going to respond to one part of your post, William, because it appears to be a misunderstanding that many of your questions are based upon.

[Replying to William in post #382]

If that is the case, then why would you argue that if someone wants to know if you truly are hearing the voice of Christ, they need only to ask Christ themselves.

Never have I ever argued this.

I have invited people to come to Christ to learn the truth of a matter - meaning the content of something shared.

You guys keep making it about me - I keep telling you it is not about me.

I'm not here puffing up my chest saying 'look at me, I hear Christ.'

I'm a witness to Him. Pointing TO Him - He is the Truth, the One to whom the Father said to listen.

Christ lives and speaks: the only evidence *I* can give anyone on that matter are His words in what is written, the testimony from others in what is written, and my own personal testimony. I give that testimony (as have others) not so people look at me, but rather that they look to Christ, come to Him, knock and keep knocking, seek and keep seeking (if indeed that is what the person wishes to do.)


Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace again,

[Replying to tam in post #347]

Jack you are under no obligation to read or respond.

I am certain this is what you would like to happen, since we are clearly demonstrating the falsehood of your claim.

Jack, I was trying to respect your wishes. Yet here you are using even that to cast a false slur against me.

If we were talking in person and you said you did not want to discuss further, I would stop out of respect for you wish.

Again, I have no doubt that you are more than ready to end this conversation, and we both know why.

You 'think' you know why, but you 'think' wrong.

I meant exactly what I said - no more, no less.

But there are others reading here, so I am just going to try and clear up a couple remaining questions (or issues.)

Tammy, there cannot be a whole lot of folks who are following our conversation. This certainly seems to demonstrate you are playing to an audience, and you are more concerned about playing to the audience, than you are "for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." In other words, it certainly seems as if you are more concerned about the idea that you hear from Jesus directly, than you are about the faith.

No, it just means I am concerned about the reader. Even if just one person.

Truly, truly, no obligation to read or respond. No judgment from me either.

Yeah, yeah, I got it, and I am sure the rest of the very few folks who are following the conversation get it as well. It is your hope, prayer, and wish that I will not respond.

What is a person supposed to say to something like this?

You have 100% misread the situation.

I have said only that the bible is not inerrant.

You have assured us the Bible is full of scribal errors, and I have asked you to supply us with some of these errors, and I have failed to see where you have given us any examples. Because you see, if you insist there are indeed scribal errors, then you should be able to point to examples. If you cannot then you have come to this conclusion by someone else giving you this information.

I did what you asked here:

viewtopic.php?p=1187313#p1187313

I can give you another easy one off the top of my head and that would be the word 'hell' - different words have all been translated into the one word 'hell', confusing the issue of 'hades, tartarus, gehenna' - even mixing up 'hell' and 'the lake of fire'.

Snake instead of 'serpent' in the Garden of Eden. That was never a snake that could talk. That was the Adversary, the Dragon, the ancient serpent (a seraph.)

The next question I would like you to answer is, is what we have contained in the Bible able to make us "complete?" Is what we have contained in the Bible able to make us "thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work?" Or do we need more?

You put "complete" in quotations, so you might need to explain what you mean.

Just taking it as it is though - I have to say no, and I would also say that even Paul did not believe what you are interpreting from his words. Paul needed Christ. He had to learn from Christ. If the scriptures had been enough to make him complete, then he would not have needed to learn more from Christ. But he did.

As did Peter (for a second example) - or he would have known that Gentiles were going to be included in the covenant from the scriptures, that he should not call them unclean. But he did not know this from the scriptures. He needed Christ to teach him this in a vision (from Acts - the clean and unclean animals.)

Paul also says the following:

And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. Colossians 2:10

So Paul knew that we are made complete in Christ.

But He does reveal Himself, Jack:

Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.” John 14:21

This is not through various other witnesses. This is Christ revealing Himself to the one who loves Him. This is a promise that I know is true - it and the one made in verse 23.

Tammy, this is why it is so frustrating to converse with you. You are again, using a passage which has nothing whatsoever to do with you. We do not have the time nor the space to expound it all out to you, but Jesus is having an intimate conversation with the twelve and has just told them that He would be betrayed. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus revealing Himself to you but is rather comforting His apostles for His departure from them.

No, Jack, you are wrong in this.

Listen to the words:

WHOEVER has my commands.

"WHOEVER has my commands is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

These are the men who would go on to give their lives for what they were proclaiming, while you sit there on your computer typing away as it cost you absolutely nothing claiming a promise from Jesus which does not even belong to you. Well, how about this promise from Jesus just a few verses later? This comes from verse 31 of the same chapter, just 10 verses later,

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me."

Do you claim this promise from Christ in this same chapter, in that He "will not speak much more with you?"

That was time specific, Jack. He did not say "I will not speak much more with you (or anyone) ever" - because He did speak with them (and others) after His resurrection and ascension.

He wasn't going to speak with His apostles much longer that night, though. Nor much longer as a man in the flesh. Because He was about to be arrested, tortured, crucified to death. Then He would resurrect and ascend to the Father. But He continued to speak to His apostles (and others) after that ascension. Yes?

Oh, good question. Choosing between the two, definitely the second. Draw, pull, lead, bring, enable.

Here is the word translated as 'draw' from blue letter bible:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

OH? So then, it does not mean "draw" such as an "inward power" like you claim to have, but rather it is like Jesus is "dragging" you against your will?

Who said anything about this being against someone's will?

(And just to clarify - God is the One who draws people to His Son. Not "Jesus". That would not make sense.)


Peace again.

[OneJack]

[Replying to William in post #383]

o be clear - my stated opinion is that using such defence as JW and tam use re deceptive spirits opens up that pandora's box and makes anything untrustworthy...simply by elevating these supposed entitles to have powers equal to God - (or to claim such entities have those kinds of powers)...

Even if such are limited to being able to deceive human beings, the same pandora's box of problems spills forth. Who can trust whom? The whole dilemma created by such belief cannot be understated.

The problem is that any belief system which acknowledges powerful, deceptive spirits while claiming access to special revelation must provide a way to distinguish the two.

To eradicate Pandora's box and the danger of deception, ditch them both, then come to and call on the Lord Jesus Christ, and seek from Him the truth that you want to ferret out in this issue if you believe in the Lord.

If the purpose of God in each particular case is not known, there is no way for the believer to know whether a given revelation is from God or a demonic deception allowed by God.

Why are you saying that there is no way for the believer to know whether a given revelation is from God or a demonic deception allowed by God? What do you think of God? Isn't God alive? Isn't God real, and above all, can communicate with God even if he is not seen?

Also, why do you think God requires a devil to do the dirty work as it were?

Because of the stubbornness of people who refuse to approach God so that God can fill them, they end up falling into their foolish thoughts which will only bring them harm. A good example is the audacity of people who stole the position of the Lord as the Pastor and Teacher of God's sheep. They thought that even healing was granted to them by the Lord, so the Lord allowed them in their foolish thoughts and delivered them to demons to toy with them in their worship services, where people act like drunkards and are possessed by ten demons at a time, while the pastor speaks word after word of foreign languages mimicking the speaking in tongues in the Bible. What they do not realize is that demons entered into the pastor’s speech of languages that were not his native tongue, so the demons came and played with them, thinking that what was happening to them was the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s what they thought, but in reality, demons were playing with them.

Therefore anything contained within the bible is unreliable. This would include God, Jesus, biblical visions, prophetic utterances, and even the apparent resurrection appearances..and possibly even near-death experiences...all of which were listed. It would also include statements about deceptive spirits the devil, angels et al...

That's why you have to treat the bible as mere testimony to Jesus that He exists. If you want the truth, come to and call on the Lord, and listen to Him when He responds. Jesus will surely brings you to the truth, the light, and to the way to your salvation and eternal life.

Tammy also denies the same thing. But none of you are convinced that one is 'hearing the Lord.' None of you seem to be claiming that they are 'Jesus, or the Creator God, or the Son of God,' so you might think there’s no problem with alignment... but... well... there seems to be...

I already told you, when your perspective is like that, you should throw both aside and go straight to the Lord Jesus, who is always by your side, even when you don’t see Him, and ask Him directly for the truth you are seeking, so that you won’t be confused by anyone. There is only one you should always look to in these kinds of discussions, and that is the Lord Jesus alone, the home of Truth, Life, and the Way to salvation and your eternal life.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #394]

I'm going to respond to one part of your post, William, because it appears to be a misunderstanding that many of your questions are based upon.

Maybe. Maybe not.

If that is the case, then why would you argue that if someone wants to know if you truly are hearing the voice of Christ, they need only to ask Christ themselves.

Never have I ever argued this.

Well now here's my problem with this tammy. Not only does it serve as a possible diversion in an attempt to not answer the questions fairly put to you about your claim, but not long ago you called me a liar (said I was lying) and even after I proceed to show that this was not the case, you never even bothered to reply to that OR apologise. Now I don't know if this is because you have a memory problem or not, but even if that is the case, this doesn't give you the right to ignore such. Calling someone a liar (or even implying such) is bad enough - but ignoring them when they show they have not lied at all - well - that isn't very Christ-like is it? It doesn't bode well with your witness.

So no - I am not going to go back and find the place where you DID say such. As far as I am concerned it makes no difference whether you did or didn't in relation to the questions which have been put to you and your continued lack of answering those.

I have invited people to come to Christ to learn the truth of a matter - meaning the content of something shared.

If that were the simple truth of the matter, your claims of hearing a voice calling itself Christ, has no bearing on that.

You guys keep making it about me - I keep telling you it is not about me.

Yet is IS about YOU tam. YOU hearing what YOU claim is the voice of Christ. YOU constantly saying so. YOU saying that YOU don't want to "put Christ on show" by providing in-depth verbatim example of the conversation this voice is having with YOU.

YOU calling me a liar. YOU not apologizing. It is all about YOU. That you don't see this, and consequently deny it, doesn't change the fact.

I'm not here puffing up my chest saying 'look at me, I hear Christ.'

Then stop doing so. It make no difference. It is simply YOUR claim and one that YOU have no obvious interest in providing evidence about it so that other can at least try to grasp what it is YOU are saying or why YOU are even saying it.

I'm a witness to Him. Pointing TO Him - He is the Truth, the One to whom the Father said to listen.

No. YOU are pointing to a claim about a voice in your head. Nothing YOU have said has shown anyone HIM.

Christ lives and speaks: the only evidence *I* can give anyone on that matter are His words in what is written, the testimony from others in what is written,

No different than anyone else calling themselves a Christian.

and my own personal testimony.

Ah yes YOUR testimony. A very different one from others calling themselves a Christian. That testimony that adds how YOU hear a voice in your mind calling itself Christ.

I give that testimony (as have others) not so people look at me, but rather that they look to Christ, come to Him, knock and keep knocking, seek and keep seeking (if indeed that is what the person wishes to do.)

And what has this voice you hear have to do with that? Why even mention it at all if you are pointing to something else other that the voice YOU claim to hear?

[William]

[Replying to OneJack in post #396]

I reject your sermon as a pointless exercise addressed to someone who has no need of it. Get you facts right before committing to such silliness OJ.

[OneJack]

[Replying to OneJack in post #396]

I reject your sermon as a pointless exercise addressed to someone who has no need of it. Get you facts right before committing to such silliness OJ.

You have nothing to take from it, nothing if you want the salvation of your soul; Jesus is all we need. Truth can only be found in Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

All you're saying is nothing but your opinion since you've heard nothing yet from the Lord Jesus Christ ...

You say this a lot, but what do YOU mean?

• Are you suggesting that only individuals that have supernaturally met Almighty God in the flesh can accurately understand and post about God's messages to the people, as expressed through the written testimonies of the Prophets?

• Or are you saying that the verbatim words of Christ as testified by his eyewitness companions cannot be trusted as actually having been said by him?

... you've heard nothing yet from God, and all you have are just biblical passages...

• Are you suggesting that someone that reads the verbatim quotation of the words of God has not "heard from God"? (I am using my own words to express my question).

• Or do you mean that (this is not a quotation, it is a question formed using my own words) ... do you mean that unless a person has had a supernatural experience literally hearing the audible voice of God (or has met God incarnate in the body of a young boy), one is unable to know if the written testimony of God's Prophets is actually what God said or not?