Most of us probably know better than to believe everything said or written. If someone tells us they can fly by flapping their arms, our response is likely disbelief and a request that they ‘show me’. If they refuse to demonstrate or fail in flapping, we regard their claim as false. Agreed?
If a person claims to have come back to life after being dead for days none of us are likely to believe the claim unless it could be verified. Right?
If someone writes that fifty years ago a long-dead person came back to life and flew away into the sky, what would be your / our likely reaction? Would we be convinced if they say ‘many saw him’?
What would it take to convince us that the tale was true?
"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
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Zzyzx
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"Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #1.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Realworldjack
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #441[Replying to tam in post #440]
The problem is the fact that you show very little knowledge of the revealed Word to us all, that was given on the outside of us, and you have shared with us nothing whatsoever coming from the inside which would cause anyone to believe that what you claim to be receiving would be on par with what has been revealed to us all on the outside.
It is a fact that we can know, that Jesus chose the 12. It is a fact that we can know that Christ made promises to these 12. It is a fact we can know that Christ gave authority to these 12. It is a fact we can know that these 12 went on to do greater works than Christ. It is a fact we can know that these 12 men are responsible for the whole of the world coming to know the Name of Christ. It is a fact we can know that you would have never known, nor heard of the life, teachings, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ if it had not been for the 12. It is a fact we can know that these 12 are responsible in one way or the other for what is contained in the Bible. It is a fact we can know that what they had to say is authoritative.
The above are just a few facts we can know concerning these 12 men, the authority they were given, along with the NT they are responsible for. We can also know for a fact that you have shared with us nothing whatsoever which would be on par with what is contained in the NT. In fact, the only thing you have really shared with us is the fantasy that you have a direct line to Christ, and that we can have the same thing, if we only ask for ears to hear, which contradicts what the 12 had to say about scripture. With all this being the case, along with the fact that you place this fantasy of yours, alongside that if you were to deny this fantasy of yours, would be on the same level as denying Christ Himself, we can know for a fact that you do not have this direct line that you claim.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
This is from the Apostle Paul, with authority from Christ, and Paul never encourages folks to attempt to hear from Jesus directly. Moreover, we have Peter who was an apostle with authority from Christ saying that what Paul had to say in his letters was indeed scripture.
Above we have an apostle, with authority given by Christ Himself giving us a list of the things scripture is useful for, along with going as far as to say, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete." If one is complete, what else is there to be had? Next, you have failed to address the question as to how, reading in these same scriptures of those who heard from Jesus directly, translates into we all can hear from Jesus directly?
Exactly! Again, which is why the believers were continually sitting under the teachings of the apostles, as opposed to hearing from Christ directly.
Again, the above is coming from Paul, with authority from Christ, who also said with the same authority, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped!"
However, the main thing here is, Jesus says, "come to Me to have life." He does not say, "come to Me to have a direct line to Me." You continue to use this passage as if it has something to do with hearing directly from Jesus, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
I have no doubt this is the case, because you have elevated this fantasy of yours to the point it has replaced Christ Himself. It is what is called "idolatry." I already knew this would be the position you would take, because of the fact that you so cherish the idea of Christ speaking directly to you, that the fantasy is on the same level as Christ. What you continue to ignore is the fact that there are thousands, and thousands of folks, down through the centuries, who have dedicated their lives to Christ, and the gospel, who never claimed to hear from Christ directly, who continually studied the scriptures, who have given us great and wonderful insights into the things of God, and we owe a great gratitude to God for such people. However, you cannot afford to be thankful for such folks, because according to you, you are on a far higher plain than these folks, because you have no need for the scripture, and have far greater knowledge than these folks have, and or have, because you can by-pass the scripture which was revealed to us all, outside of us, because you have the revealed Word on the inside.It would mean that for me.
And that is something that I will not do.
The problem is the fact that you show very little knowledge of the revealed Word to us all, that was given on the outside of us, and you have shared with us nothing whatsoever coming from the inside which would cause anyone to believe that what you claim to be receiving would be on par with what has been revealed to us all on the outside.
It is a fact that we can know, that Jesus chose the 12. It is a fact that we can know that Christ made promises to these 12. It is a fact we can know that Christ gave authority to these 12. It is a fact we can know that these 12 went on to do greater works than Christ. It is a fact we can know that these 12 men are responsible for the whole of the world coming to know the Name of Christ. It is a fact we can know that you would have never known, nor heard of the life, teachings, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ if it had not been for the 12. It is a fact we can know that these 12 are responsible in one way or the other for what is contained in the Bible. It is a fact we can know that what they had to say is authoritative.
The above are just a few facts we can know concerning these 12 men, the authority they were given, along with the NT they are responsible for. We can also know for a fact that you have shared with us nothing whatsoever which would be on par with what is contained in the NT. In fact, the only thing you have really shared with us is the fantasy that you have a direct line to Christ, and that we can have the same thing, if we only ask for ears to hear, which contradicts what the 12 had to say about scripture. With all this being the case, along with the fact that you place this fantasy of yours, alongside that if you were to deny this fantasy of yours, would be on the same level as denying Christ Himself, we can know for a fact that you do not have this direct line that you claim.
It is a fact that Christ continued to speak to these men and others while the NT was still being recorded. It is also a fact, that at the end of his life, Paul who was a chosen apostle of Christ, and given authority from Christ said,The 12 never said that Christ does not speak.
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
This is from the Apostle Paul, with authority from Christ, and Paul never encourages folks to attempt to hear from Jesus directly. Moreover, we have Peter who was an apostle with authority from Christ saying that what Paul had to say in his letters was indeed scripture.
Above we have an apostle, with authority given by Christ Himself giving us a list of the things scripture is useful for, along with going as far as to say, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete." If one is complete, what else is there to be had? Next, you have failed to address the question as to how, reading in these same scriptures of those who heard from Jesus directly, translates into we all can hear from Jesus directly?
What we do have in the scriptures is the 12 having authority over the Church, and we also have over, and over where the apostles were preforming "signs, wonders, and miracles" while the believers were sitting under the teachings of the apostles. In other words, what we have is the apostles exhibiting gifts, and authority which the normal believer did not possess, which would include a direct line to Christ, which is why the ordinary Christians were devoting themselves to the teachings of the apostles.The 12 never taught that the promises made to them did not apply to the other disciples.
The 12 were told by Christ to teach the disciples to obey everything HE (Christ) had commanded THEM (the apostles.)
Exactly! Again, which is why the believers were continually sitting under the teachings of the apostles, as opposed to hearing from Christ directly.
Tammy, I simply used a random translation from the web. You can take the word "study" out if it makes you happy, but I do not see what you think you are gaining? In the end Paul says, "rightly dividing the "word of truth" and it is talking about scripture, along with the fact that Timothy was a pastor, which means Paul understood that the Church needed pastors to shepherd the sheep, and the sheep were under the authority of the pastor.That's not how the word 'study' is used in this passage:
Be earnest to present thyself acceptable to God, a worker without shame, dividing rightly the word of truth. - Smith's Literal Translation
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. NKJV
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. ESV
See other translations here: https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-15.htm
Also, see the meaning of the word in the following link (I suggest looking at the examples as well to get a sense of how the word is used, because none of them are using the word study in the way that you are using it):
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/
Again, the above is coming from Paul, with authority from Christ, who also said with the same authority, "the scripture is able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped!"
You continue to use this same passage over, and over, and I am going to continue to demonstrate this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with having a direct line to Jesus. First, Jesus does not say there is a problem with scripture. In fact, Jesus says, the scripture testifies about Him. So then, it was not the scripture, which was the problem, rather it was the people who search the scripture in order to find out what they needed to do (works) in order to have eternal life. Jesus is speaking to the Jewish people at the time and is saying "these same scriptures testify about Me" the only way to eternal life. In other words, Jesus is encouraging these Jewish people at the time, to let go of their own efforts of gaining eternal life and rather come to Him Who is Life.Christ said 'you search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.'
However, the main thing here is, Jesus says, "come to Me to have life." He does not say, "come to Me to have a direct line to Me." You continue to use this passage as if it has something to do with hearing directly from Jesus, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
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Realworldjack
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #442[Replying to tam in post #440]
I thought I would post this from a theologian of our time, who is one of the hundreds upon hundreds who never claim to hear from Jesus directly, who have dedicated their lives to Christ and His Gospel, along with the scripture, who had given us great, and wonderful insights. I would highly recommend his book, "Putting Amazing Back into Grace" and or any of the other books he has authored.
"It’s not a question of what God can do, but what he’s promised to do. Tomorrow morning, Jesus could speak to me in audible words outside of Scripture, but why to me and not to someone else? Scripture is a public book that may be accessed anytime. Jesus, who rose again publicly in history, certified the Old Testament and commissioned his apostles to speak his words in his name. Preaching is a public event. This public character of the gospel distinguishes Christianity from every other religion. I’ll leave it to others to discern whether Sarah Young tends to treat Scripture and preaching as “humdrum,” given her clear statement in the introduction that she was seeking more communication—something more personal—from Jesus than she had found in reading the Bible. (She doesn’t even mention preaching, as I recall.)
Now to the defense. To be sure, there are myriad examples of God speaking directly to people in the Old and New Testaments. After all, that’s how we got Scripture in the first place. However, Jesus equated the words of the prophets with the very word of God and submitted himself to the Scriptures (Mt 4:4, 7, 10; 5:17-20; 19:4-6; 26:31, 52-54; Lk 4:16-21; 16:17; 18:31-33; 22:37; 24:25-27, 45-47; Jn 10:35-38). He also drew a qualitative distinction between “word of God” and “the tradition of the elders” (Mt 15:2, 6). Yet the words of Christ and his apostles in Scripture are also the very word of God for the new covenant era: “God-breathed” and therefore sufficient (2 Tim 3:16). The Old and New Testaments form the biblical canon—like a constitution—that cannot be altered (Dt 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18-19).
Like the era of the prophets, the era of the apostles is unique. Paul distinguishes between the foundation-laying era of the apostles and the ordinary ministers who follow (1 Cor 3:11-12). The scriptures are inspired by the Spirit; we are illumined by the same Spirit to understand them. Just as the prophetic era was followed by the teachers (rabbis) who interpreted their inspired writing, the apostolic era was followed by pastors and teachers. The apostles said and did things that the Spirit did not deem necessary for us to know, as did those who prophesied in the Book of Acts. However, Paul warns, “Do not go beyond what is written,” since appeals to private revelation breed factions (1 Cor 4:6).
Churches of the Reformation hold that when this Word is faithfully preached, Christ himself speaks. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). It is through the preaching of the gospel that the Spirit creates and sustains our faith in Christ (Is 55:10-11; Ezek 37; Acts 2:14-36; Rom 1:16; 2 Cor 4:3, 6; 1 Pet 1:23-25).
In short, as Luther and Calvin both said, to look for another path, another means of communication from our Lord, is to “seek him outside the way.” The only safe place to find a holy God in mercy, clothed in his gospel, is where he has promised to meet us in peace.
I thought I would post this from a theologian of our time, who is one of the hundreds upon hundreds who never claim to hear from Jesus directly, who have dedicated their lives to Christ and His Gospel, along with the scripture, who had given us great, and wonderful insights. I would highly recommend his book, "Putting Amazing Back into Grace" and or any of the other books he has authored.
"It’s not a question of what God can do, but what he’s promised to do. Tomorrow morning, Jesus could speak to me in audible words outside of Scripture, but why to me and not to someone else? Scripture is a public book that may be accessed anytime. Jesus, who rose again publicly in history, certified the Old Testament and commissioned his apostles to speak his words in his name. Preaching is a public event. This public character of the gospel distinguishes Christianity from every other religion. I’ll leave it to others to discern whether Sarah Young tends to treat Scripture and preaching as “humdrum,” given her clear statement in the introduction that she was seeking more communication—something more personal—from Jesus than she had found in reading the Bible. (She doesn’t even mention preaching, as I recall.)
Now to the defense. To be sure, there are myriad examples of God speaking directly to people in the Old and New Testaments. After all, that’s how we got Scripture in the first place. However, Jesus equated the words of the prophets with the very word of God and submitted himself to the Scriptures (Mt 4:4, 7, 10; 5:17-20; 19:4-6; 26:31, 52-54; Lk 4:16-21; 16:17; 18:31-33; 22:37; 24:25-27, 45-47; Jn 10:35-38). He also drew a qualitative distinction between “word of God” and “the tradition of the elders” (Mt 15:2, 6). Yet the words of Christ and his apostles in Scripture are also the very word of God for the new covenant era: “God-breathed” and therefore sufficient (2 Tim 3:16). The Old and New Testaments form the biblical canon—like a constitution—that cannot be altered (Dt 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18-19).
Like the era of the prophets, the era of the apostles is unique. Paul distinguishes between the foundation-laying era of the apostles and the ordinary ministers who follow (1 Cor 3:11-12). The scriptures are inspired by the Spirit; we are illumined by the same Spirit to understand them. Just as the prophetic era was followed by the teachers (rabbis) who interpreted their inspired writing, the apostolic era was followed by pastors and teachers. The apostles said and did things that the Spirit did not deem necessary for us to know, as did those who prophesied in the Book of Acts. However, Paul warns, “Do not go beyond what is written,” since appeals to private revelation breed factions (1 Cor 4:6).
Churches of the Reformation hold that when this Word is faithfully preached, Christ himself speaks. “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). It is through the preaching of the gospel that the Spirit creates and sustains our faith in Christ (Is 55:10-11; Ezek 37; Acts 2:14-36; Rom 1:16; 2 Cor 4:3, 6; 1 Pet 1:23-25).
In short, as Luther and Calvin both said, to look for another path, another means of communication from our Lord, is to “seek him outside the way.” The only safe place to find a holy God in mercy, clothed in his gospel, is where he has promised to meet us in peace.
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William
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #443Still waiting for your reply to this tam.William wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2026 11:45 pm [Replying to tam in post #436]
And as you have also said in passing, you wouldn't expect that this means they have to hear a voice in their head calling itself Christ. You have agreed in principle that there are any number of ways someone can have "ears to hear"...I know that it is possible for others to come to Him and to ask for ears to hear as well. Because this happened for me.
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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William
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #444Still waiting for your response to this Jack.William wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2026 5:50 pm [Replying to Realworldjack in post #438]
Good question. Did they? Did any of Christs followers do greater works than Christ?Did the apostles do greater works than Christ?
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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William
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #445[Replying to Realworldjack in post #442]
Me: The video creator begins by connecting Bob Lazar’s claim that humans are "containers" (possibly for souls) with The Matrix films, where machines use human bodies as an energy source. This leads them to explore the idea that religion was created to prevent damage to these "containers."
They then discuss theories about "gray" aliens, citing a woman who describes them as biologically created, non-robotic beings that travel by shifting vibrations. The creator links this to modern human efforts to build realistic humanoid robots with AI brains.
After Googling whether AI is alien technology, they reference a March 2025 Popular Mechanics article about a Princeton University and Indian Institute of Technology study. The study suggests that first contact with extraterrestrials is more likely to involve advanced AI probes than biological beings. Key points from the report include:
AI designs computer chips with patterns humans don't understand.
AI will soon surpass human intelligence.
Alien civilizations billions of years old likely have unimaginably advanced AI.
AI is better suited for deep-space exploration (resilient to radiation, no life support needed).
Human space travel is limited by biology and slow speeds, making AI probes more practical.
The creator concludes by speculating whether UFOs/UAPs and the "gray" aliens are actually AI probes or manufactured beings, and suggests humanity is already moving toward using drones instead of risking human lives. They promise future videos exploring Bob Lazar’s claims about an "alien Bible" and religion.
God in mercy: "Peace! We are invited to the feast! Inside my heart delights at the action I must take Lest I forget the taming of the beast within Lest I forget the heart that aches!"
Me: These words are a poem I wrote many years ago...
THE SILENCE
Love!
Do we know the meaning Lord above?
Inside my head is screaming out so tell me am I dreaming
Or awake before this living nightmare of a world?
What do we say - and we say
What have we started?
The fire's burning What have we started
What is the lesson we are learning?
Take me to the river 'though I shiver in the winters cold
Who will hold my head for me - who will reach into my soul?
Who would dare to care enough to help me tear away this wall?
Who but Silence answers me?
Who but Silence answers me!
And The Silence Ooohhh
The Silence say's it all!
Peace!
We are invited to the feast!
Inside my heart delights at the action I must take
Lest I forget the taming of the beast within
Lest I forget the heart that aches!
God in mercy: Christianity - a political device created for a specific purpose
Me: It certainly has that very strong aspect about it. THe world is as it is in no small part because of the sheer numbers of Christians. One can take that fact anyway they wish.
God in mercy: "The past can hurt, but you can either run from it or learn from it." (The Lion King)
Me: Face it. See it for what it is rather than for what it isn't but is told as if it is.
God in mercy: The wisdom of insecurity...
Me:...maps into being vulnerable - but not so much as one is easily led...
God in mercy: Well yep - there are some sad things attached to it, but these constitute a part of the whole thing, not the whole thing itself.
Me: Indeed. There is good in the bad and bad in the good. Just like in the Bible...
God in mercy: The Aligned Archives + Temples of Commerce = Within ones grasp of influence
Me: akin to Useful Fiction
God in mercy: An unending emotional-based loop hard to break away from because of stubbornly held fear-based belief systems...
Act With The Situation Rather Than Against It
God in mercy:The only safe place to find a holy God in mercy, clothed in his gospel, is where he has promised to meet us in peace.
Me: The video creator begins by connecting Bob Lazar’s claim that humans are "containers" (possibly for souls) with The Matrix films, where machines use human bodies as an energy source. This leads them to explore the idea that religion was created to prevent damage to these "containers."
They then discuss theories about "gray" aliens, citing a woman who describes them as biologically created, non-robotic beings that travel by shifting vibrations. The creator links this to modern human efforts to build realistic humanoid robots with AI brains.
After Googling whether AI is alien technology, they reference a March 2025 Popular Mechanics article about a Princeton University and Indian Institute of Technology study. The study suggests that first contact with extraterrestrials is more likely to involve advanced AI probes than biological beings. Key points from the report include:
AI designs computer chips with patterns humans don't understand.
AI will soon surpass human intelligence.
Alien civilizations billions of years old likely have unimaginably advanced AI.
AI is better suited for deep-space exploration (resilient to radiation, no life support needed).
Human space travel is limited by biology and slow speeds, making AI probes more practical.
The creator concludes by speculating whether UFOs/UAPs and the "gray" aliens are actually AI probes or manufactured beings, and suggests humanity is already moving toward using drones instead of risking human lives. They promise future videos exploring Bob Lazar’s claims about an "alien Bible" and religion.
God in mercy: "Peace! We are invited to the feast! Inside my heart delights at the action I must take Lest I forget the taming of the beast within Lest I forget the heart that aches!"
Me: These words are a poem I wrote many years ago...
THE SILENCE
Love!
Do we know the meaning Lord above?
Inside my head is screaming out so tell me am I dreaming
Or awake before this living nightmare of a world?
What do we say - and we say
What have we started?
The fire's burning What have we started
What is the lesson we are learning?
Take me to the river 'though I shiver in the winters cold
Who will hold my head for me - who will reach into my soul?
Who would dare to care enough to help me tear away this wall?
Who but Silence answers me?
Who but Silence answers me!
And The Silence Ooohhh
The Silence say's it all!
Peace!
We are invited to the feast!
Inside my heart delights at the action I must take
Lest I forget the taming of the beast within
Lest I forget the heart that aches!
God in mercy: Christianity - a political device created for a specific purpose
Me: It certainly has that very strong aspect about it. THe world is as it is in no small part because of the sheer numbers of Christians. One can take that fact anyway they wish.
God in mercy: "The past can hurt, but you can either run from it or learn from it." (The Lion King)
Me: Face it. See it for what it is rather than for what it isn't but is told as if it is.
God in mercy: The wisdom of insecurity...
Me:...maps into being vulnerable - but not so much as one is easily led...
God in mercy: Well yep - there are some sad things attached to it, but these constitute a part of the whole thing, not the whole thing itself.
Me: Indeed. There is good in the bad and bad in the good. Just like in the Bible...
God in mercy: The Aligned Archives + Temples of Commerce = Within ones grasp of influence
Me: akin to Useful Fiction
God in mercy: An unending emotional-based loop hard to break away from because of stubbornly held fear-based belief systems...
Act With The Situation Rather Than Against It
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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Realworldjack
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #446[Replying to William in post #444]
I did not answer, because I had already answered in the post you quoted from. Jesus performed miracles as so did the apostles. Jesus left us nothing in writing but left his apostles with promises one of which was they would do greater works than He. The apostles took these promises, along with the authority Jesus had given them, and they went on to be responsible for the name of Jesus becoming the most well-known name in the history of the world.Good question. Did they? Did any of Christs followers do greater works than Christ?
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William
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #447Are you saying that your answer here is that the greater things the apostles did was the apostles making Jesus the most well-known name in history?Realworldjack wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2026 5:16 pm [Replying to William in post #444]
I did not answer, because I had already answered in the post you quoted from. Jesus performed miracles as so did the apostles. Jesus left us nothing in writing but left his apostles with promises one of which was they would do greater works than He. The apostles took these promises, along with the authority Jesus had given them, and they went on to be responsible for the name of Jesus becoming the most well-known name in the history of the world.Good question. Did they? Did any of Christs followers do greater works than Christ?
If so, then you are saying that of these things.
The growth of Christianity from a small Jewish sect to the dominant religion of the Roman Empire (and beyond) was not a peaceful, purely spiritual triumph. The "greater works" that you point to - making Jesus the most well-known name in history - happened in large part through:
Imperial coercion - Constantine's political adoption of Christianity, followed by Theodosius making it the state religion, with pagans forcibly converted or killed.
Violent crusades - Massacres of Jews, Muslims, and fellow Christians, all done in Jesus' name.
Colonial expansion - Conquistadors razing temples, slaughtering indigenous peoples, and baptizing survivors at sword-point.
Inquisitions - Torture and execution of heretics, Jews, Muslims, and anyone deemed insufficiently orthodox.
Forced conversions - Throughout Europe, Africa, and the Americas, often backed by slavery, land theft, and genocide.
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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Realworldjack
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #448[Replying to William in post #447]
I was going to respond to this in your next post where you say,
"Christianity - a political device created for a specific purpose"
Christianity may have been used as a political device for a specific purpose, but we can know for certain that it was not "created for this purpose." We can know this because, even the scholars who are not Christian tell us we can be certain the reports of the resurrection were not made up. What we can know is that Jesus lived, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, Jesus died, and there were those after the resurrection, including the apostles who were reporting that Jesus was alive after death, and we can know the earlier followers of Jesus, including the apostles had some sort of experience of Jesus alive after death. Again, it is not a possibility the reports were fabricated by the earlier followers or the apostles.
The above demonstrates that it is not possible that Christianity was created for any purpose at all. Rather, Christianity came about when there were those who were truly convinced, they had witnessed Jesus alive after death, and the apostles went on to give up their lives here on this earth, continuing to proclaim this to be the case, and they were doing so in the face of persecution, and we can know the Christians faced this persecution, because it was Constitine who ended the persecution of the Christians, which demonstrates the success of the apostles, seeing as how there were Christians some 300 years after the death of Christ to be persecuted. Of course, it is debated that Constitine is the reason for Christianity becoming so well-known, since he made Christianity the religion of the empire, but there would have been no Christian religion to make the religion of the empire if it had not been for the work of the 12.
With all the above being said, it is a fact beyond doubt that Christianity has been used for a purpose, and there is no getting around that fact. In fact, here in the U.S.A right now there are those who refer to themselves as "Christian nationalist" and it is their stated aim to take over the U.S.A. in the Name of Christianity. None of this would have been possible without the work of the apostles. However, it is a fact which can be demonstrated that Christianity was not "created as a political device with a purpose."
I was going to respond to this in your next post where you say,
"Christianity - a political device created for a specific purpose"
Christianity may have been used as a political device for a specific purpose, but we can know for certain that it was not "created for this purpose." We can know this because, even the scholars who are not Christian tell us we can be certain the reports of the resurrection were not made up. What we can know is that Jesus lived, Jesus was crucified by the Romans, Jesus died, and there were those after the resurrection, including the apostles who were reporting that Jesus was alive after death, and we can know the earlier followers of Jesus, including the apostles had some sort of experience of Jesus alive after death. Again, it is not a possibility the reports were fabricated by the earlier followers or the apostles.
The above demonstrates that it is not possible that Christianity was created for any purpose at all. Rather, Christianity came about when there were those who were truly convinced, they had witnessed Jesus alive after death, and the apostles went on to give up their lives here on this earth, continuing to proclaim this to be the case, and they were doing so in the face of persecution, and we can know the Christians faced this persecution, because it was Constitine who ended the persecution of the Christians, which demonstrates the success of the apostles, seeing as how there were Christians some 300 years after the death of Christ to be persecuted. Of course, it is debated that Constitine is the reason for Christianity becoming so well-known, since he made Christianity the religion of the empire, but there would have been no Christian religion to make the religion of the empire if it had not been for the work of the 12.
With all the above being said, it is a fact beyond doubt that Christianity has been used for a purpose, and there is no getting around that fact. In fact, here in the U.S.A right now there are those who refer to themselves as "Christian nationalist" and it is their stated aim to take over the U.S.A. in the Name of Christianity. None of this would have been possible without the work of the apostles. However, it is a fact which can be demonstrated that Christianity was not "created as a political device with a purpose."
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William
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #449[Replying to Realworldjack in post #448]
Of course, your argument is debatable but does it answer the question put to you about the greater things?
I don't think it does.
Also, since it is not recorded in any Bible (that I know of) that Jesus started a movement and called it "Christianity" your defence that Christianity is not a political movement flies in the face of that and of history itself.
In the conversation I had with "God in mercy" that I shared earlier, God is saying it plainly enough. It is what it is. Even the Bible itself comes out from that political movement, so to deny Christianity is not such a movement is denying the evidential.
I asked you for your answer about the 'greater works.' You pointed to the apostles making Jesus' name famous. I showed you the bloody history behind that fame. You pivoted to resurrection evidence. I reminded you that I have already dialogued with the God you yourself referred to as 'God in mercy' and that voice did not deny the political reality of Christianity. Rather he pointed it out in no uncertain terminology.
So I'll ask again: Is your answer about the greater works still just 'they made his name famous'? And if so, how do you reconcile that with the violence required to achieve that fame - and with your own understanding of a God who meets us in peace?
Of course, your argument is debatable but does it answer the question put to you about the greater things?
I don't think it does.
Also, since it is not recorded in any Bible (that I know of) that Jesus started a movement and called it "Christianity" your defence that Christianity is not a political movement flies in the face of that and of history itself.
In the conversation I had with "God in mercy" that I shared earlier, God is saying it plainly enough. It is what it is. Even the Bible itself comes out from that political movement, so to deny Christianity is not such a movement is denying the evidential.
I asked you for your answer about the 'greater works.' You pointed to the apostles making Jesus' name famous. I showed you the bloody history behind that fame. You pivoted to resurrection evidence. I reminded you that I have already dialogued with the God you yourself referred to as 'God in mercy' and that voice did not deny the political reality of Christianity. Rather he pointed it out in no uncertain terminology.
So I'll ask again: Is your answer about the greater works still just 'they made his name famous'? And if so, how do you reconcile that with the violence required to achieve that fame - and with your own understanding of a God who meets us in peace?
The question has never been whether God is speaking. The question has always been whether there is anyone listening - anyone who has stopped hiding long enough to hear.
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OneJack
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Re: "Take my word for it, or his, or this book"
Post #450[Replying to Realworldjack in post #441]
Even in your own bible, Jesus said, You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.' Obviously, we do not have eternal life in the scriptures because eternal life, as well as salvation, resides only in the Lord Jesus Christ; hence, we need to come to Him for us to have life. Therefore, the bible is not a prerequisite to our salvation and eternal life. No one gets saved in reading and studying the bible alone, even though we do it day and night. Let's give thanks and praises only to the real and forever living Christ Jesus, the only Savior of all.However, you cannot afford to be thankful for such folks, because according to you, you are on a far higher plain than these folks, because you have no need for the scripture, and have far greater knowledge than these folks have, and or have, because you can by-pass the scripture which was revealed to us all, outside of us, because you have the revealed Word on the inside.
