Questions about The Tanagers Belief.

[William]

Hi Jason,

Would this be accurate re your belief about sin?

View of Sin, Hell, and Separation
• Hell is not a punishment added by God: It is the name for the state of being separated from God — a state humans are already in.
• Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.
• Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.
• God does not "burn" non-believers: Asks critics to provide verses for hell-as-torture; suggests many Christians (including himself) reject that view.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #10]

Cannot "surrender" in the way humans must (due to divine nature).

I agree with everything else, but need more clarity what you mean in the above.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #10]

Cannot "surrender" in the way humans must (due to divine nature).

I agree with everything else, but need more clarity what you mean in the above.

I got the information from past posts you wrote along the lines of...

In Post #91 (Sat May 23, 2015): "The limitation on God's nature is that He can't surrender (perhaps we should flush out what I mean by that more?)"

In Post #254 (Mon Jun 15, 2015): "But God, in His own nature, can't surrender, suffer, submit, die."

In Post #78 (Fri May 22, 2015): "This price was required because of God's nature (can't surrender) and human nature (we have free will and are physical beings)."

The "in the way humans must (due to divine nature)" has been inferred from that.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #12]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. In that specific context/sense, yes, God cannot surrender. That context was how humans have gone against God’s ways, can’t fix themselves, and so need to surrender to God’s wisdom. It doesn’t make sense to say God went against His way and needs to surrender to His wisdom. God and His ways are the one surrendered to.

But I do think God can surrender in other senses. Jesus surrendered or emptied Himself of His equality with the Father and surrendered His life for us, for instance.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #13]

Oaky - what I am doing here is asking Jason about his beliefs so that they can be mapped with brief bullets

so far

Hell's nature

Physical-spiritual - it has physical consequences

Duration — undecided, content with that.

Who rejects whom — humans reject God

Present hellish scapes — concrete examples given

Present heavenly scapes — yes, and Christians extend them. Non-Christians can extend heavenly scapes to an extent but that we all need God’s guidance to do it and thinks that guidance comes through being a disciple of Jesus.


Eternal possibilities — four options, open to more
(1) ceasing to exist
(2) a separate physical existence where people are free to do what they want to each other and are treated how they have treated
(3) a physical existence of a kind of de-evolution, where human consciousness would be lost and those beings would be former humans.
(4) Completely alone.

God's Nature

Omnipotent, but bound by logical possibility (cannot create round squares).

Cannot "surrender" in the way humans must (due to divine nature), but does think God can surrender in other senses.

Cannot override human free will (by loving choice, not lack of power).

May be atemporal (outside time) or temporal; The Tanager is still thinking through this issue, but finds atemporality logically coherent.

Not malevolent, incompetent, or apathetic regarding evil.

______________

Still to verify/clarify

Human Nature
• Humans are physical-spiritual unities (rejects dualism; influenced by Aquinas).
• The body is not a temporary shell; resurrection is bodily.
• Humans have free will and can rebel against God.
• Humans cannot perfectly repent or surrender on their own.

[The Tanager]

Yes, I believe humans are physical-spiritual unities, the body is not a temporary shell, resurrection is bodily, humans have free will, can rebel against God, can't perfectly repent/surrender on their own.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #15]

Thanks for that.

Moving on then.

The Crucifixion and Atonement
• Not penal substitution. God is not demanding a blood payment.
• Not human sacrifice in the pagan sense. God did not command or require humans to kill Jesus; humans freely chose torture and crucifixion.
• Jesus could have died peacefully at 100; the method was human choice.
• Purpose: To redeem human nature physically (because humans are physical beings). God incarnates to surrender perfectly (something God cannot do in divine nature and humans cannot do alone). This redeemed nature is imparted to believers through the Holy Spirit.
• Sacrificial language in the Bible is analogical (Passover lamb, temple sacrifices) but not one-to-one.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #16]

As far as the atonement goes, I see a distinction between the act itself and theories attempting to explain that in, yes, more analogical terms.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #16]

As far as the atonement goes, I see a distinction between the act itself and theories attempting to explain that in, yes, more analogical terms.

Is this better then

The Crucifixion and Atonement (Distinction between the act itself (historical) and theories explaining it (analogical, imperfect))
• Not penal substitution. God is not demanding a blood payment.
• Not human sacrifice in the pagan sense. God did not command or require humans to kill Jesus; humans freely chose torture and crucifixion.
• Jesus could have died peacefully at 100; the method was human choice.
• Purpose: To redeem human nature physically (because humans are physical beings). God incarnates to surrender perfectly (something God cannot do in divine nature and humans cannot do alone). This redeemed nature is imparted to believers through the Holy Spirit.
• Sacrificial language in the Bible is analogical (Passover lamb, temple sacrifices) but not one-to-one.

[The Tanager]

Is this better then

The Crucifixion and Atonement (Distinction between the act itself (historical) and theories explaining it (analogical, imperfect))
• Not penal substitution. God is not demanding a blood payment.
• Not human sacrifice in the pagan sense. God did not command or require humans to kill Jesus; humans freely chose torture and crucifixion.
• Jesus could have died peacefully at 100; the method was human choice.
• Purpose: To redeem human nature physically (because humans are physical beings). God incarnates to surrender perfectly (something God cannot do in divine nature and humans cannot do alone). This redeemed nature is imparted to believers through the Holy Spirit.
• Sacrificial language in the Bible is analogical (Passover lamb, temple sacrifices) but not one-to-one.

Sure that works.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #19]

Moving on the.

5. Salvation

The only path given this creation (free will + physical beings). God could have created differently but chose a world where love requires free will.

People before Jesus can be saved if they trusted in God, even without knowing the mechanism.

Repentance is not just saying "sorry" but unlearning self-will; it requires sharing in Christ's perfect surrender.