Questions about The Tanagers Belief.

[William]

Hi Jason,

Would this be accurate re your belief about sin?

View of Sin, Hell, and Separation
• Hell is not a punishment added by God: It is the name for the state of being separated from God — a state humans are already in.
• Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.
• Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.
• God does not "burn" non-believers: Asks critics to provide verses for hell-as-torture; suggests many Christians (including himself) reject that view.

[The Tanager]

Hi Jason,

Would this be accurate re your belief about sin?

View of Sin, Hell, and Separation
• Hell is not a punishment added by God: It is the name for the state of being separated from God — a state humans are already in.
• Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.
• Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.
• God does not "burn" non-believers: Asks critics to provide verses for hell-as-torture; suggests many Christians (including himself) reject that view.

Yes, but with some slight nuances/clarifications perhaps.

On the second point, they aren't just spiritual states, but are physical-spiritual states. I also am undecided on if hell extends eternally beyond the grave or ends in annihilation.

On the third point, I'm not sure what you mean by God rejecting humans. I don't think God rejects humans who come to Him to trust Him, but some could understand God not rejecting humans as speaking to eventual universal salvation, which I don't believe.

I agree with the rest.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #2]

Thanks for participating Jason. I started this thread specifically to study your beliefs since we have had little success over the years in developing any permanent understanding of each others world views and I thought perhaps this approach might bear better...

• Hell is not a punishment added by God: It is the name for the state of being separated from God — a state humans are already in.

Yes, but with some slight nuances/clarifications perhaps.

If they arise then we can look further...

• Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.

On the second point, they aren't just spiritual states, but are physical-spiritual states. I also am undecided on if hell extends eternally beyond the grave or ends in annihilation.

What gives you cause to pause on this question?

• Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.

On the third point, I'm not sure what you mean by God rejecting humans. I don't think God rejects humans who come to Him to trust Him, but some could understand God not rejecting humans as speaking to eventual universal salvation, which I don't believe.

To clarify — are you saying GOD rejects humans who do NOT come to Him in trust? Or do you think God rejects no one at all, but some humans simply never come?

• God does not "burn" non-believers: Asks critics to provide verses for hell-as-torture; suggests many Christians (including himself) reject that view.

I agree with the rest.

From what I understand, you belief hellish scapes are not all about fire and brimstone? Can you name a few of those other hellish states, just for context?

Thanks

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #3]

• Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.

On the second point, they aren't just spiritual states, but are physical-spiritual states. I also am undecided on if hell extends eternally beyond the grave or ends in annihilation.

What gives you cause to pause on this question?

Do you mean my indecision concerning whether I think hell is an eternal physical existence for humans or if annihilationism is true? If so, then (1) I don't think the Bible addresses that point, (2) I see no good reason to trust a different historical text (since I think the authority of the Bible comes from the historicity of Jesus' resurrection and His endorsement of the Biblical texts and no other), and (3) I see no scientific or philosophical (or any other means of knowledge) reasons that point to one over the other.

If you mean something else, then please clarify.

• Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.

On the third point, I'm not sure what you mean by God rejecting humans. I don't think God rejects humans who come to Him to trust Him, but some could understand God not rejecting humans as speaking to eventual universal salvation, which I don't believe.

To clarify — are you saying GOD rejects humans who do NOT come to Him in trust? Or do you think God rejects no one at all, but some humans simply never come?

I would phrase it as the latter, but I think some people would say those phrases are just two ways to say the same thing. So, in how you seem to mean it, I think God doesn't reject anyone, but that some humans don't come.

From what I understand, you belief hellish scapes are not all about fire and brimstone? Can you name a few of those other hellish states, just for context?

I think fire and brimstone are metaphorical pictures. I'm not sure I understand the context of your question, so I'll answer it in two different but connected senses and you can clarify if you mean something else.

First, I think when someone says "I swear to God" to try to manipulate people into doing what they want, that is a hellish scape. I think when I focus on my work or something I could easily pause and don't connect with my wife who just came home from work, that is a hellish scape. I think when a pastor misuses their power and position, that is a hellish scape. I think when widows and orphans are neglected, that is a hellish scape. I think when a child is being sex trafficked, that is a hellish scape. I think when a baby is being aborted, that is a hellish scape. I think when a young woman considering abortion doesn't have support around them to where she believes that is the only option available to her, that is a hellish scape. I could keep going, but I think that gives some flavor of that sense.

Second, I think the eternal hellish scape could be either (1) ceasing to exist (but that's the lack of a scape, not a scape) or (2) a separate physical existence where people are free to do what they want to each other and are treated how they have treated (and continue to treat) others or (3) a physical existence of a kind of de-evolution, where human consciousness would be lost and those beings would be former humans.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #4]

Do you mean my indecision concerning whether I think hell is an eternal physical existence for humans or if annihilationism is true? If so, then (1) I don't think the Bible addresses that point, (2) I see no good reason to trust a different historical text (since I think the authority of the Bible comes from the historicity of Jesus' resurrection and His endorsement of the Biblical texts and no other), and (3) I see no scientific or philosophical (or any other means of knowledge) reasons that point to one over the other.

If you mean something else, then please clarify.

Jason, you mentioned the Bible doesn't address the duration question definitively. I'm curious - if you later wanted to move from "undecided" to a broader view on annihilation vs. eternal duration, what kind of evidence or reasoning would you look for? For example, would you consider things like philosophical arguments about justice, or reports of near-death experiences, or something else? Or is this something you're content to leave open-ended?

I would phrase it as the latter, but I think some people would say those phrases are just two ways to say the same thing. So, in how you seem to mean it, I think God doesn't reject anyone, but that some humans don't come.

Okay - so it is about humans rejecting GOD (or perhaps ideas of GOD they don't like)?

First, I think when someone says "I swear to God" to try to manipulate people into doing what they want, that is a hellish scape. I think when I focus on my work or something I could easily pause and don't connect with my wife who just came home from work, that is a hellish scape. I think when a pastor misuses their power and position, that is a hellish scape. I think when widows and orphans are neglected, that is a hellish scape. I think when a child is being sex trafficked, that is a hellish scape. I think when a baby is being aborted, that is a hellish scape. I think when a young woman considering abortion doesn't have support around them to where she believes that is the only option available to her, that is a hellish scape. I could keep going, but I think that gives some flavor of that sense.

Given that, would you also think there are heavenly scapes here and now?

Second, I think the eternal hellish scape could be either (1) ceasing to exist (but that's the lack of a scape, not a scape) or (2) a separate physical existence where people are free to do what they want to each other and are treated how they have treated (and continue to treat) others or (3) a physical existence of a kind of de-evolution, where human consciousness would be lost and those beings would be former humans.

The could be other variants of these scapes, given your lists?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #5]

Jason, you mentioned the Bible doesn't address the duration question definitively. I'm curious - if you later wanted to move from "undecided" to a broader view on annihilation vs. eternal duration, what kind of evidence or reasoning would you look for? For example, would you consider things like philosophical arguments about justice, or reports of near-death experiences, or something else? Or is this something you're content to leave open-ended?

Correcting my previous misunderstanding of the Biblical text and, yes, philosophical arguments including ones built from premise(s) that concern NDEs, if the evidence could back that up.

But I’m also very content in leaving this open-ended as I don’t think this knowledge is needed to have a relationship with God or to care for others well.

Okay - so it is about humans rejecting GOD (or perhaps ideas of GOD they don't like)?

Yes, I think it is about humans rejecting God.

Given that, would you also think there are heavenly scapes here and now?

Absolutely. I think that is the Christian mission, to join God in extending the heavenly scapes.

The could be other variants of these scapes, given your lists?

I’m not sure. Those are the three options I’ve been able to think of as generally possible, but maybe there is more. I’m always open to considering adding more possibilities there.

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #6]

Okay thanks for your answers re that subject.

Just to go over them;

Hell's nature — physical-spiritual (from earlier)

(Not sure what you mean by that but for now it can sit)

Duration — undecided, content with that

Who rejects whom — humans reject God

Present hellish scapes — concrete examples given

Present heavenly scapes — yes, and Christians extend them

(What about non-Christians?)

Eternal possibilities — three options, open to more

(For example - no other company whatsoever).

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #7]

By hell being physical-spiritual, I mean that it’s not just a spiritual state a person is in, but that it has physical consequences. The person who sex traffics a child has a hellish spiritual state that has physical consequences upon others and the way the world is.

I believe non-Christians can extend heavenly scapes to an extent, but that we all need God’s guidance to do it as well as possible and as completely as possible and I think that guidance comes through being a disciple of Jesus.

Yes, I believe no other company whatsoever is another option. I actually usually put that as part of the second one I gave, as I feel that that kind of life would become a lonelier and lonelier one with people turning in on themselves, but I could see making that a separate option.

[William]

Sin, Hell, and Separation.

My original bullet point #1:

Hell is not a punishment added by God: It is the name for the state of being separated from God — a state humans are already in.

You affirmed this, but with the nuance that it is physical-spiritual, not just spiritual.

My original bullet point #2:

Not a place of physical fire (necessarily): Medieval imagery is not binding. Heaven and hell are spiritual states present on earth that extend beyond the grave.

You clarified — they are not just spiritual states, but physical-spiritual states. You are also undecided on whether hell extends eternally beyond the grave or ends in annihilation.

My original bullet point #3:

Separation is self-caused: God does not reject humans; humans reject God. Disobedience is a symptom of broken relationship, not the root cause.

You clarified — God rejects no one. Humans reject God.

My original bullet point #4:

God does not "burn" non-believers: Asks critics to provide verses for hell-as-torture; suggests many Christians (including himself) reject that view.

You affirmed this. Fire and brimstone are metaphorical.

Additional beliefs you clarified during our discussion:

Present hellish scapes exist now (examples: sex trafficking, abortion, neglect, manipulation, ignoring loved ones, abuse of power)

Present heavenly scapes exist now, and Christians (and non-Christians to an extent) are to extend them

Eternal possibilities include: annihilation, separate physical existence where people harm each other and are treated accordingly, de-evolution (loss of human consciousness), or complete isolation (no other company)

[William]

Would this be accurate re your belief about God's Nature

Omnipotent, but bound by logical possibility (cannot create round squares).

Cannot "surrender" in the way humans must (due to divine nature).

Cannot override human free will (by loving choice, not lack of power).

May be atemporal (outside time) or temporal; The Tanager is still thinking through this issue, but finds atemporality logically coherent.

Not malevolent, incompetent, or apathetic regarding evil.