Does the USA need to STOP supporting ISRAEL NOW-?

[thomasdixon]

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis murder Palestinian children

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis destroy Palestinian fishing boats.

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis murder American citizens.

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis destroy Palestinian villages and then build illegally on top of the rubble.

28 Dec 2022
Benjamin Netanyahus incoming hardline government put West Bank settlement expansion at the top of its list of priorities on Wednesday, vowing to legalise dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory as part of its coalition deal with its ultranational allies.
Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

We, as Americans, including American Jews must band together and demand that we, citizens of America STOP giving Israel money.
We must make our voices heard in Congress and directly to Biden.

Israel should be designated a terrorist state-?

opinions welcome yes/no/why

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #86]
I have no problem whatsoever with the claim of atrocities and provocations an both (or all) sides. That is the nature of man and his tribes.
However, I have little tolerance for the absurd idea that somehow there was justification for the creation of the State of Israel because 'Jews owned the land.' Hebrews, like all tribes, stole land from other tribes, but the operative fact is that following the Muslim conquest in 638 CE. were a minority in the region until the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948,

Agreed. No argument with me there!

What other examples in human history do we have where, after 13 centuries, a group from another continent (European Jews) invaded another land and claimed ownership 1300 years later? And they did so with the blessing of most of. the world who A) felt guilty about their treatment of the Jews, particularly during the Holocaust, AND because of continuing antisemitism - Europeans wanted the Jews OUT of Europe. Thus antisemitism allied with Zionism to 'legitimize' the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land. Just like Hitler and the Nazis they used any means necessary .
Certainly Palestinians responded in kind. The Palestinian response served to give Israel plenty of legitimate excuses to take even more land. But the original crime in 1947-48 has never been rectified. And now under the war criminal Netanyahu, Israel wants the rest of the Levant/Palestine. Because of that original crime, there will never be peace in the region.

I agree with you that the way the Jews took over Israel (enabled by the UN) was a crime. Where I differ though is that I see a bigger underlying problem, which is that too many on BOTH sides, Jews and Arabs, want all or the majority of the land for themselves. What the Jews and UN did was just a symptom stemming from that root problem.

I'd bet there would've still been conflict even if the UN and Israel followed through with a two-state solution (presumably dividing the land equally) and that's because many Arabs and their leadership don't want that. Even today we see Hamas is fighting for a one-state solution, they've stated just as much, and would carry that out if they had the power to do so. We can also say the same for the Israeli side.

The central issue that needs to be addressed to get peace is to remove anyone from power that opposes a two-state solution.

[Avoice]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #87]

What abour all those we killed when we dropped the bombs on japan. Why not be angry about that?

You conpletely dodged Americans killing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians and wounding countless. Instead you accuse me of bringing up bombing japan to justify Israel.

Israel was justified because they were attacked by Hamas first.

So again, what should we do to Americans for bombing japan?

[Avoice]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #87]

What??? I dont hear you accusing Hamas.
They burned babies alive, raped children and savagely murdered innocent people. And took videos of doing it.

Why no mention of these brutal crimes?

[William]

Warfare is a type of hell….”it don’t look like Johnny’s coming home”. War is confusing…
Assigning an entity which clearly the Izzy’s (Israelites) feared and believed in… adds another layer of mystery to the confusion.

Often we sit in our modern surrounds hardly remembering the blood sacrifices of those who in most cases had no choice but to fight - they are remembered more recently as “The Greatest Gen” and following Gens have no collective inkling of the method of madness which allowed them to rest easy and consume product.

Now, to avoid branching off into cynicism, (sin-ism) I have to agree that whatever “YHVH” was/is - The Izzy’s feared him/Him more than they feared killing “virgins” and because they had no stakes in any lands and were different and thus threatening, they became natural targets of human aggression.

These people were reclaimed orphans, homeless and in need of a stable environment they could abide within.

Now, I can agree that the YHVH entity may have helped make that difficult for His Flock - the Izzys - by influencing the hostiles but I have the “feeling” that such would have been unnecessary as the hostiles where just reacting as they naturally were taught to react due to human skulduggery in such matters as who owns what and who must die to protect that what.

And fast forwarding, it is a matter of fact that The Izzys and their YHVH made a place for themselves in this planetary kerfuffle.

read more here...
Between Sacrifice and Sovereignty:
Violence, God, and the Human Condition

[historia]

The U.S. should have stopped supporting Israel in 1947-48. That's when the genocide started.

I can only assume your graph represents the attempt at an argument. I say 'attempt' because I see no cogent argument. I can only guess at the 'point' the author tries to make.

And yet it was compelling enough for you to respond to it.

one must perpetrate several logical fallacies to think sheer population increase means no effort of genocide, displacement, and land theft have been perpetrated by the State of Israel against the the people of Palestine.

Is one of those logical fallacies moving the goal posts? Because I'm addressing your use of the word "genocide," while your response here tried to tack on other things.

That efforts to exterminate a race or ethnic group were not completely successful does not mean the policy of genocide did or does not exist. Both Jews and Arabs survived policies of genocide. You can add African Americans and Native Americans to that list.

That seems like a rather poorly conceived list. Here are the examples Britannica gives in its article on genocide:

Twentieth-century events often cited as genocide include the 1915 Armenian massacre by the Turkish-led Ottoman Empire, the nearly complete extermination of European Jews, Roma (Gypsies), and other groups by Nazi Germany during World War II, the killing of some three million Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s, and the killing of Tutsi by Hutu in Rwanda in the 1990s.

During the respective time periods when these genocides were perpetrated, do you think the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish and Roma populations in Europe, the Tutsi population in Rwanda, and the Cambodian population under the Khmer Rouge went up or down?

According to you, the Israelis have been committing a "genocide" for the past 75 years, and yet the Arab population in both the Palestinian territories and Israel proper has only gone up. Are the Jews just uniquely bad at genocide? Or is "genocide" the wrong word to describe this conflict?

[William]

[Replying to historia in post #95]

According to you, the Israelis have been committing a "genocide" for the past 75 years, and yet the Arab population in both the Palestinian territories and Israel proper has only gone up. Are the Jews just uniquely bad at genocide? Or is "genocide" the wrong word to describe this conflict?

If so, then the argument can be equally said of the Nazi's in relation to the Jews and other ethnics who suffered at their hands.

Perhaps then, genocide has to include things like concentration camps and those other things which were associated with the attempt to exterminate a people.

[historia]

[Replying to historia in post #95]

According to you, the Israelis have been committing a "genocide" for the past 75 years, and yet the Arab population in both the Palestinian territories and Israel proper has only gone up. Are the Jews just uniquely bad at genocide? Or is "genocide" the wrong word to describe this conflict?

If so, then the argument can be equally said of the Nazi's in relation to the Jews and other ethnics who suffered at their hands.

That doesn't follow at all. The Jewish and Roma populations in Europe went down during the Holocaust, not up.

[William]

[Replying to historia in post #95]

According to you, the Israelis have been committing a "genocide" for the past 75 years, and yet the Arab population in both the Palestinian territories and Israel proper has only gone up. Are the Jews just uniquely bad at genocide? Or is "genocide" the wrong word to describe this conflict?

If so, then the argument can be equally said of the Nazi's in relation to the Jews and other ethnics who suffered at their hands.

That doesn't follow at all. The Jewish and Roma populations in Europe went down during the Holocaust, not up.

Well...yes.
I did write more than that though...

[AgnosticBoy]

During the respective time periods when these genocides were perpetrated, do you think the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish and Roma populations in Europe, the Tutsi population in Rwanda, and the Cambodian population under the Khmer Rouge went up or down?

According to you, the Israelis have been committing a "genocide" for the past 75 years, and yet the Arab population in both the Palestinian territories and Israel proper has only gone up. Are the Jews just uniquely bad at genocide? Or is "genocide" the wrong word to describe this conflict?

I think the charge of genocide or just a complete land grab is reasonable. Even today, some Israeli officials have been caught trying to justify starvation of millions of Palestinians (CNN). Such sentiment among Jews may've been more prevalent the farther back you go.

The only disagreement i tend to have with the genocide charge is when it is applied just to the Jews. I think that narrative mostly comes from the Free Palestine side turning this into a social cause in their favor - framing the Jews as the occupiers and the Palestinian side as slaves fighting for their freedom. I should say that it is a social cause in that millions are either dead or suffering, but it's just not for all the reasons that many Palestinians have framed it. The crowd that doesn't research beyond what they read on social media and that are already looking to be activists for social causes usually get duped into accepting false social narratives.

No one side is completely innocent.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #86]
I have no problem whatsoever with the claim of atrocities and provocations an both (or all) sides. That is the nature of man and his tribes.
However, I have little tolerance for the absurd idea that somehow there was justification for the creation of the State of Israel because 'Jews owned the land.' Hebrews, like all tribes, stole land from other tribes, but the operative fact is that following the Muslim conquest in 638 CE. were a minority in the region until the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948,

What other examples in human history do we have where, after 13 centuries, a group from another continent (European Jews) invaded another land and claimed ownership 1300 years later? And they did so with the blessing of most of. the world who A) felt guilty about their treatment of the Jews, particularly during the Holocaust, AND because of continuing antisemitism - Europeans wanted the Jews OUT of Europe. Thus antisemitism allied with Zionism to 'legitimize' the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land. Just like Hitler and the Nazis they used any means necessary .
Certainly Palestinians responded in kind. The Palestinian response served to give Israel plenty of legitimate excuses to take even more land. But the original crime in 1947-48 has never been rectified. And now under the war criminal Netanyahu, Israel wants the rest of the Levant/Palestine. Because of that original crime, there will never be peace in the region.

Jews did not take the lands that became Israel circa 1948ish. Jews were (mostly) given access to those by Great Britain with other countries in support.

Fer the luv of Mike! Really? GB and the UN finally capitulated to the demands of the Zionists, and gave them land that belonged to others. Then Israel stole more... and are continuing to by settling the West Bank.