Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

I believe the torment, the eternal fire, is eternal and there is no coming back from it. But, that doesn't mean people live there.

Your belief makes no logical sense. A conscious agency would need to exist there to realize it is torment for eternity. (i.e.) Can you eternally torment a rock? No.

By what I know, torment doesn't necessary require that the tormented is conscious.

Therefore it can be said the punishment is eternal.

Again, can a rock be eternally punished?

I think Bible says eternal punishment, not eternally punished.

[1213]

...never mind making up stuff that the Bible doesn't say just to make your claims work is, yo believe,...

So, you think it is not true when Jesus tells in the Bible that only righteous will go to eternal life and others to destruction? Why should Christians rather believe you than Jesus?

You may b close to winning this one where does Jesus say 'eternal destruction?' Mind, I have long resolved that I'll take oblivion rather than grovelling to some celestial despot.

I just had a look at arguments on both sides. There are arguments both ways, but Matthew 25 says: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal punishment sounds pretty conclusive doesn't it (I recall we argued this and you tried to make it the method of punishment was eternal but the time spen in it wasn't. But if so, and if not the obvious reading should be the preferred one and not one that requires Interpretation.

The fire lake is called the eternal punishment. It burns eternally. However, it doesn't say that the people there are conscious eternally.

Here is the scripture that tells person who is sent to hell (Gehenna, eternal fire lake) is destroyed, both soul and body. Bible doesn't tell that someone could get back from there, that is why I think it means, when one is destroyed utterly, he remains destroyed and doesn't live, do or feel anything ever again.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [also translated hell].
Matt. 10:28

And one reason why I think they are not living there eternally is that eternal life is promised only for righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

And thank you, I also choose not to grovel to celestial despot.

[1213]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

Are we going from what a religious text says, or what God actually thinks?

Bible tells what Bible God thinks. If there is some god that thinks something contradictory to it, it is not the Bible God. My loyalty belongs to the Bible God.

[boatsnguitars]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

Are we going from what a religious text says, or what God actually thinks?

Bible tells what Bible God thinks. If there is some god that thinks something contradictory to it, it is not the Bible God.

Other Holy Texts say other things. Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?

My loyalty belongs to the Bible God.

No, your loyalty is to the idea.

[POI]

torment doesn't necessary require that the tormented is conscious.

How might someone be tormented if they are not conscious?

I think Bible says eternal punishment, not eternally punished.

It's clear it is speaking about both the unpunished and the punished. The unpunished have eternal bliss. The punished have eternal torment. They both require eternal consciousness, (either by way of experiencing bliss or torment).

[1213]

torment doesn't necessary require that the tormented is conscious.

How might someone be tormented if they are not conscious?
...

What about this example:

The Witch makes the mundane sinister, from the tormented shapes of the corn husks in the field to the weird glow of pewter by candlelight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment

If shapes of corn husks were tormented, were they conscious?

[1213]

Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?

No.

[boatsnguitars]

Are you suggesting that God is a character in a fiction?

No.

But you call it the Bible God - apparently to distinguish from other gods? Aren't other gods fictional?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #622]

Ok. I will agree that the Bible implies termination of body and soul even if the Christian dogma is about eternal life or eternal torment. I don't really mind as I believe none of it anyway, but I will concede you have a good case for what you believe. Now I come to think of it the idea of Pau's fire that tests the work (sor of burning out imperfection to make the body fit for heaven) would work if the body is not fit.

"Well, now...nothing left of that one....next..."

would fit that scenario quite nicely.

[TRANSPONDER]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

Are we going from what a religious text says, or what God actually thinks?

Bible tells what Bible God thinks. If there is some god that thinks something contradictory to it, it is not the Bible God. My loyalty belongs to the Bible God.

But for sure we've seen it's how you interpret, select and make stuff up as I'm sure other believers do.Your loyalty is towards your own beliefs.

torment doesn't necessary require that the tormented is conscious.

How might someone be tormented if they are not conscious?
...

What about this example:

The Witch makes the mundane sinister, from the tormented shapes of the corn husks in the field to the weird glow of pewter by candlelight.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment

If shapes of corn husks were tormented, were they conscious?

that is outrageous. Of course we can torment an inanimate object but for people torment means when they are conscious. This is utter Interpretation (not to say fiddling) on your part. Of course you had a point that the text could imply oblivion. Destroying body and soul.An atheists is actually ok with oblivion.the eternal life is a bit chancy.Suppose you don't like it?