Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[boatsnguitars]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

[POI]

You were the one who provided the two verses. They conflict. This is why you spin them to taste.

They conflict only if you interpret them so. Do you have any good reason to interpret in a contradictory way?

No, it is contradictory by YOUR interpretation. Why? You insinuate that your punishment and/or torment is not eternal. But the verse below defies this claim by using a plain reading. (i.e.)

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46 (interpretation: this verse insinuates that the unchosen are eternally punished. Just like the chosen are to receive eternal life. To be internally punished, you must be internally aware. Just like you need to be internally aware to go into eternal life. Which then means the unchosen cannot really be completely destroyed, but instead internally aware of their torture/torment/punishment/other. Which means you cannot have your cake and eat it too.) Eternal means you are both conscious of good and bad. Neither are destroyed.

[TRANSPONDER]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

Again we find you not only interpreting but making stuff up. The passage makes no such conditions or qualification. there is no "...until they have purified or have been punished enough." I am going with what it says, you are inventing.
#
But I reckon I know why; you have an idea in your head and you think it is guided by God, so your interpretations of what the Bible says, never mind making up stuff that the Bible doesn't say just to make your claims work is, yo believe, God's truth downloaded into your head.

If so (and I think my theory is right) you are deluding yourself as others think different things and believe that is god - given truth, too. Apart (again ) from making claims that are surely invalid like a cosmic on and off lightswitch to excuse that Genesis says the sun was made later than daylight.

p.s there is of course the Matthew sermon passage about not coming out of jail until the last farthing is paid (a farthing was an old UK currency of a quater of a penny. They were stamped with a cross so it could be cut into four things.The term also applies to the four 'farthings' of a Shire. Like the west farthing, Southfarthing (where the Pipe weed was grown. the eastfarthing where the illicit narcotics trade with Bree went on, and the Lastfarthing which nobody wanted to live in.

However, that term can also be read and not being a place of torment that one can work off with unpaid community service, but as the prison of sin which one could pay the way out of with a show of repentance and dollar in the tin. If it works now, why wouldn't it work then?

[1213]

...never mind making up stuff that the Bible doesn't say just to make your claims work is, yo believe,...

So, you think it is not true when Jesus tells in the Bible that only righteous will go to eternal life and others to destruction? Why should Christians rather believe you than Jesus?

[1213]

No, it is contradictory by YOUR interpretation. Why? You insinuate that your punishment and/or torment is not eternal. But the verse below defies this claim by using a plain reading. (i.e.)

You really shouldn't make any interpretations. I have said, I don't think there is anything in the Bible that supports the idea that person is alive in the eternal torment. I believe the torment, the eternal fire, is eternal and there is no coming back from it. But, that doesn't mean people live there.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46 (nterpretation: this verse insinuates that the unchosen are eternally punished. Just like the chosen are to receive eternal life. To be internally punished, you must be internally ....

The "punishment" is the fire lake. And the fire lake is eternal. Therefore it can be said the punishment is eternal. No reason in that to think it means the person also must be eternally alive.

[1213]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

No, it is you making a claim that also the Bible does not say. But consider; after salvation, they are alive forever right? So if they are in torment after death why would they not be tormented forever unless the Bible says it is only temporary which it doesn't? (1) If it does, you show me where. Don't make the mistake of thinking whatever you think is the default theory until I can disprove it from the Bible. Though that is the basic fallacy of theist apologetics, it still isn't valid.

(1) it is the same matter of information that should be given like the sun wasn't actually made after the earth but was only hidden by cloud (as some Genesis -literalists who don't believe that the sun was actually made later than the earth as you appear to) s why would the Bible mislead or at least leave people in confusion? Is the post judgement fire eternal or temporary? hint 'ask God' doesn't cut it because we get different answers.

[boatsnguitars]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.

So you know this for certain? Or do you only believe it? Does God agree with your assessment of his actions? Does he approve of you opining about his methods?

I know that Bible doesn't say anyone is alive in the fire lake forever. If you think I am wrong, please show a scripture that tells otherwise. This should not be a matter of opinion, but clear question about what is said in the Bible.

Are we going from what a religious text says, or what God actually thinks?

[TRANSPONDER]

...never mind making up stuff that the Bible doesn't say just to make your claims work is, yo believe,...

So, you think it is not true when Jesus tells in the Bible that only righteous will go to eternal life and others to destruction? Why should Christians rather believe you than Jesus?

You may b close to winning this one where does Jesus say 'eternal destruction?' Mind, I have long resolved that I'll take oblivion rather than grovelling to some celestial despot.

I just had a look at arguments on both sides. There are arguments both ways, but Matthew 25 says: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal punishment sounds pretty conclusive doesn't it (I recall we argued this and you tried to make it the method of punishment was eternal but the time spen in it wasn't. But if so, and if not the obvious reading should be the preferred one and not one that requires Interpretation.

[POI]

I believe the torment, the eternal fire, is eternal and there is no coming back from it. But, that doesn't mean people live there.

Your belief makes no logical sense. A conscious agency would need to exist there to realize it is torment for eternity. (i.e.) Can you eternally torment a rock? No.

Therefore it can be said the punishment is eternal.

Again, can a rock be eternally punished?