Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

Because if your awareness/consciousness is destroyed, then you cannot be tormented.

By what I see, the word torment doesn't necessary mean the tormented is conscious. It can for example be said that fire tormented a wood in fire place and the piece of wood would not have any conscience at that point. It just means that the fire is burning in such a way that it looks like it is tormenting. And yes, I understand that you could say that this is just my interpretation. But, I think it is the correct understanding of it, because in Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous and death for others. If one is dead, I don't see how could that be interpreted so that he is actually still alive and conscious.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[TRANSPONDER]

Because if your awareness/consciousness is destroyed, then you cannot be tormented.

By what I see, the word torment doesn't necessary mean the tormented is conscious. It can for example be said that fire tormented a wood in fire place and the piece of wood would not have any conscience at that point. It just means that the fire is burning in such a way that it looks like it is tormenting. And yes, I understand that you could say that this is just my interpretation. But, I think it is the correct understanding of it, because in Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous and death for others. If one is dead, I don't see how could that be interpreted so that he is actually still alive and conscious.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

But that quote upsets your entire argument. If torment doesn't mean something exceedingly unpleasant experienced while conscious, how is that a punishment? Don't fall into your usual trap of making the Bible mean what it doesn't say and then insisting that it what it says.

[POI]

Because if your awareness/consciousness is destroyed, then you cannot be tormented.

By what I see, the word torment doesn't necessary mean the tormented is conscious. It can for example be said that fire tormented a wood in fire place and the piece of wood would not have any conscience at that point. It just means that the fire is burning in such a way that it looks like it is tormenting. And yes, I understand that you could say that this is just my interpretation. But, I think it is the correct understanding of it, because in Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous and death for others. If one is dead, I don't see how could that be interpreted so that he is actually still alive and conscious.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Your response demonstrates a prime example of rationalization. You see a verse you do not like, because it does not make sense, in comparison to the specific doctrine you have decided to adopt, so you spin it to taste. Transponder already summed it up perfectly in post 602.

[TRANSPONDER]

"We
Belong
To a Mutual
Admiration Society
(my buddy and me)"

(old song).

As you may know, I reckon it comes down to a belief that Faith allows God to download Truth into the heads of the believers, never mind the evidence which is just the opinion of people who call themselves scientists. Evidence is whatever feelings and beliefs they have and anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong - even mainstream Christianity.

I posted it recently but it's worth posting again as it shows the problem when people with different ideas about God all think they are getting Truth from God.

They never admit it - maybe don't realise it, but tell themselves it's obvious, scientific evidence (*or observation, at least) and What the Bible says.



And, at risk of labouring the point, this classic.



If this is how Jesusgod and Bible -believers act when they have Truth (or true interpretation/understanding) of the Bible, let alone different doctrines, Dogmas and denominations, forget about different religions (which are dismissed out of hand), why should anyone believe anything they claim.

I won't get onto the fiddling and dirty tricks...like trying to score cheap and irrelevant points, getting the last word or winding atheists up for Jesus, but they do disagree on so much while agreeing on one thing, they have a person relationship with Jesusgod.

[1213]

Your response demonstrates a prime example of rationalization. You see a verse you do not like, because it does not make sense, in comparison to the specific doctrine you have decided to adopt, so you spin it ...

I think Bible should be taken as whole, not just some random scripture that fits to your agenda. There are many scriptures related to hell and death, why should I take just one, when the others help to form the bigger picture and to understand what a single scripture means?

[1213]

... If torment doesn't mean something exceedingly unpleasant experienced while conscious, how is that a punishment...

Is there any Biblical reason to think it means something exceedingly unpleasant experienced while conscious?

I don't have any reason to insist that you must think it is a punishment. Bible tells wage of sin is death. It is also called punishment, but if you feel it is not a punishment, I think you have right for your opinion.

[TRANSPONDER]

... If torment doesn't mean something exceedingly unpleasant experienced while conscious, how is that a punishment...

Is there any Biblical reason to think it means something exceedingly unpleasant experienced while conscious?

I don't have any reason to insist that you must think it is a punishment. Bible tells wage of sin is death. It is also called punishment, but if you feel it is not a punishment, I think you have right for your opinion.

The point about a single quote overlooks the point I made about a contract.One condition is (or should be) an undertaking to deliver.You don't have to say it dozen times. One guarantee to answer prayer should be what it says, but clearly it isn't. The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state.It is hell by whatever form it takes.It is not a comfy separation or even oblivion.It is torment.

Matthew 5 talks about being cast into the fires of hell.I expect you know about the interpretation of this as the trash bonfire of Genenna just to render the unjust non- existent. Some quoting Paul may see it as a way of burning out impurities to make the soul fit for heaven. But the quote I mentioned does indicated a continued existence in anguish, does it not?

Matthew 8 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Of course that reads to me like a vision of an earthly kingdom where the worthy gentiles will come and sit with Jacob and Isaac but the 'children' (original people of Israel) will be cast out and rage over it. I can see the prophecy -fanciers having a fun time with that

[POI]

Your response demonstrates a prime example of rationalization. You see a verse you do not like, because it does not make sense, in comparison to the specific doctrine you have decided to adopt, so you spin it ...

I think Bible should be taken as whole, not just some random scripture that fits to your agenda. There are many scriptures related to hell and death, why should I take just one, when the others help to form the bigger picture and to understand what a single scripture means?

You were the one who provided the two verses. They conflict. This is why you spin them to taste.

[1213]

You were the one who provided the two verses. They conflict. This is why you spin them to taste.

They conflict only if you interpret them so. Do you have any good reason to interpret in a contradictory way?

[1213]

...The quote about wailing and gnashing of teeth should be enough to say that the rejected dead are still conscious and in a bad state....

At the moment when they know what will happen. And it can be that the reason for that is not the fire itself, but the idea that their life ends. Bible doesn't say they will live eternally and be in constant pain forever.