Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[shnarkle]

The verses in question are vss. 10-12 of the first chapter of the letter to the Hebrews which are explicitly referring to Christ.

HEBREWS 1:10-12
And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.�

PSALMS 102:25-27
Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. But you are the same, and your years will never end.

Are you suggesting the above verses refer to Christ? If so, why do you come to such a conclusion?

Because the whole first chapter is about the son

e.g. "by Whom He has made the worlds";
"who being the brightness of his glory";
"But unto the SON he says, "Thy throne, O God...etc.";
"And Thou Lord, in the beginning has laid the foundation....etc"

The author of Hebrews is attributing these all to the son, who is Christ. We know that from "by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high"

The refernces in the psalms are direct references to Jehovah, while the author of Hebrews is claiming these are referring to Christ. It is the subject of the whole chapter.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because the whole first chapter is about the son

Are you suggesting that because Paul was talking about the son he could not at any time mention the Father? If I write a book in the subject of President Trump, can I never mention Obama?

HEBREWS 1:1, 2
Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of thing

We cannot assume that because the book of Hebrews, among other things, speaks about the role and position of Jesus, every single reference therein must automatically be assumed to refer to Jesus (see above).







JW

[EBA]

Another verse that proves Christ is God.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Peace.

[Tcg]

Another verse that proves Christ is God.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Peace.

This seems to argue the opposite.

If Jesus were God, I'd expect him to say, "All power is mine in heaven and earth."

His statement that it was given to him implies that there is someone greater who gave it to him.

Who could that be if not God?

[EBA]

Another verse that proves Christ is God.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Peace.

This seems to argue the opposite.

No, it argues against a trinity.

If Jesus were God, I'd expect him to say, "All power is mine in heaven and earth."

I disagree. Jesus knows his Father is greater than he.

His statement that it was given to him implies that there is someone greater who gave it to him.

Absolutely. That power was GIVEN to him. And the fact that he has that power makes him God.

Who could that be if not God?

It sure is God.
God the Father gives Christ everything, which would include Godship.

Peace.

[brianbbs67]

Another verse that proves Christ is God.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Peace.

This seems to argue the opposite.

No, it argues against a trinity.

If Jesus were God, I'd expect him to say, "All power is mine in heaven and earth."

I disagree. Jesus knows his Father is greater than he.

His statement that it was given to him implies that there is someone greater who gave it to him.

Absolutely. That power was GIVEN to him. And the fact that he has that power makes him God.

Who could that be if not God?

It sure is God.
God the Father gives Christ everything, which would include Godship.

Peace.

Are you saying God has retired and Christ has assumed(by permission) His position?

[EBA]

Are you saying God has retired and Christ has assumed(by permission) His position?

No, God the Father loves Christ very much.

Do you believe that?

The first being God created was Christ.

Do you believe that? You should.

From then on creation took place and is still taking place; at least from a relative point of view.

Christ is God the Father’s channel for everything.

Anytime God ever spoke in the Old Testament, it was through Christ, his first begotten.

Make no mistake about it, Christ is Yahweh, he is the “I am� and he is God.

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: IF YE HAD KNOWN ME, ye should have known my Father also. (Joh 8:19)

Peace.

[Elijah John]

Anytime God ever spoke in the Old Testament, it was through Christ, his first begotten.

Make no mistake about it, Christ is Yahweh, he is the “I am� and he is God.[/color]


Peace.

Please support the first claim with evidence from the Old Testament. I don't recall Isaiah ever saying "Thus saith the LORD, through Christ".

And if "Christ is Yahweh" what is the Father's name? What was Jesus talking about when he taught us to pray "hallowed be thy name"?

[shnarkle]

Are you suggesting that because Paul was talking about the son he could not at any time mention the Father?

Not at all. In fact, if you were to look at the text itself, you should see that there are no translations that suggest or imply that "the lord" is referring to Jehovah. They are explicitly referring to "the son" who is not Jehovah, or an angel, and can't be as the son is being explicitly distinguished from them.

If I write a book in the subject of President Trump, can I never mention Obama?

Sure, but that's not what my post is pointing out. There are clear refernces to Jehovah in the text, but they aren't those passages in question which clearly state "your throne O God"; "Thou Lord". It is Jehovah speaking (through David's psalm). The problem is that in the Psalm the word used is "Jehovah" while in Hebrews it is clearly referring to the whole subject of the chapter; the Son.

HEBREWS 1:1, 2
Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of thing

We cannot assume that because the book of Hebrews, among other things, speaks about the role and position of Jesus, every single reference therein must automatically be assumed to refer to Jesus (see above).

Straw man. I'm not saying it is a reference to Jesus, but to "the Son". The Son isn't the Father. Jehovah isn't Christ.

You still aren'







JW[/quote]

[shnarkle]

Are you suggesting that because Paul was talking about the son he could not at any time mention the Father?

No, not at all. I'm merely pointing out that the passages cited in Hebrew which are explicitly referring to "the Son". The only son that can "purge our sins and sit down at the right hand of Majesty on High". That is Christ alone.

If I write a book in the subject of President Trump, can I never mention Obama?

Sure you can, but when you write that Obama did somehting in one book, and then write that it was Trump in another book who did the exact same thing, and what he did cannot be anyone else other than Obama, you're going to have a problem explaining how it is that what you wrote in the latter document is actually Trump.

HEBREWS 1:1, 2
Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of thing

We cannot assume that because the book of Hebrews, among other things, speaks about the role and position of Jesus, every single reference therein must automatically be assumed to refer to Jesus (see above).

I'm don't recall attributing this to Jesus, but to "the Son". The father is not the son. Jehovah is not Christ, and yet your own bible points out that David has referred to Jehovah as creating while the author of Hebrews attributes creation to "the lord"; "the son"; "the purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of Majesty on high".