Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[jeremiah1five]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

Genesis 3:15 (KJV)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Luke 1:35 (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

[EBA]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

First of all, let me say for the record that I am not a Trinitarian.

I would also like to make clear that I do not believe Jesus Christ to be “God the Father� or “his own God or “his own Father.�

He is, however, Yahweh, our Father, our creator and even the creator of Christ; what he is not is “the creator of God the Father.�

Christ is God the Father’s creation.

For those that believe Yahweh to be God then here is the proof that Jesus is God, and it comes straight from Jesus’ own mouth:

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46)

Peace.

[Elijah John]

He is, however, Yahweh, our Father, our creator and even the creator of Christ; what he is not is “the creator of God the Father.�

Are you speaking of Jesus here? No, Jesus is not my Father. He is not Yahweh either. (Jesus taught, hallowed be THY name" not, "hallowed be my name".) If anything, Jesus is our brother, not our Father.

And regarding Psalm 110 attributed to David, I can't prove it, but I beleive someone else wrote that Psalm. I think scholars will come to that conclusion sometime in the future. If this is the case, the Psalmist's "Lord" is King David. And David's LORD, is of course Yahweh. So, the anonymous Psalmist writes: "Yahweh said to my Lord (King David)....

Matthew and Matthew's "Jesus" (being men of their time) accepted Davidic authorship of the Psalm. But it would not be the first time "Jesus" was wrong, ref Matthew 16.28 for just one example.

[EBA]

He is, however, Yahweh, our Father, our creator and even the creator of Christ; what he is not is “the creator of God the Father.�

Are you speaking of Jesus here?

Of course.

No, Jesus is not my Father. He is not Yahweh either. (Jesus taught, hallowed be THY name" not, "hallowed be my name".) If anything, Jesus is our brother, not our Father.

It’s unfortunate you feel that way.

Is Jesus Christ your creator?

And regarding Psalm 110 attributed to David, I can't prove it, but I beleive someone else wrote that Psalm. I think scholars will come to that conclusion sometime in the future. If this is the case, the Psalmist's "Lord" is King David. And David's LORD, is of course Yahweh. So, the anonymous Psalmist writes: "Yahweh said to my Lord (King David)....

Your challenge was to “Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.�

Well, Scripture proves that David called Jesus “Yahweh� whether you believe David wrote it or not and whether you believe Jesus was wrong or not; your rules.

Matthew and Matthew's "Jesus" (being men of their time) accepted Davidic authorship of the Psalm. But it would not be the first time "Jesus" was wrong, ref Matthew 16.28 for just one example.

And no Jesus was not wrong here; you are simply taking his words literally.

-the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)

Peace.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 92 by EBA]

EBA wrote above:

"Well, Scripture proves that David called Jesus “Yahweh� whether you believe David wrote it or not and whether you believe Jesus was wrong or not; your rules."

Ps. 110:1 shows YHWH (the Father) speaking to his Christ: Acts 2:33-36

[EBA]

Ps. 110:1 shows YHWH (the Father) speaking to his Christ: Acts 2:33-36

Sorry, but not to these first century Jew Christ was speaking to, it doesn't.

Acts came later.

Peace.

[polonius]

EBA posted

Elijah John wrote:
Matthew and Matthew's "Jesus" (being men of their time) accepted Davidic authorship of the Psalm. But it would not be the first time "Jesus" was wrong, ref Matthew 16.28 for just one example.

And no Jesus was not wrong here; you are simply taking his words literally

RESPONSE:

One is certainly prudent not to always take Jesus words literally. Keep in mind they were reported 40 -65 years after Jesus' death by non-witnesses who are trying to make converts.

[brianbbs67]

Ps. 110:1 shows YHWH (the Father) speaking to his Christ: Acts 2:33-36

Sorry, but not to these first century Jew Christ was speaking to, it doesn't.

Acts came later.

Peace.

Pauls writings appear to us as the oldest we have found thus far dating back to about 55-60ad. So, how is acts later than Mark which dates to about 85ad?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Does God sustain the world or does the world sustain itself? All of creation is nothing but an illusion without God so to think of oneself as independent of, or from God is ridiculous. The Skeptic makes us aware that we can't be absolutely certain of anything, yet this is also a truth claim. Even a skeptic must admit that the ground of our certainty can only be God. There can be no division in God, therefore there can be no separation between the subjective God, and the objective God. The problem isn't in believing in God, but in our language which necessarily separates what is whole.

Christ never claims to be God, but instead shows us that our separate identities are nothing more than illusions. The field of psychology confirms this fact in pointing out that our identities are formed while still just infants. They are nothing more than abstract constructions of the mind. They don't exist as anything other than ideas; quite persistent delusional ideas.

They are associated with physical bodies, but they are not physical bodies. Christ points out that he is not a physical body either. He, just like Adam before him was created in the image and likeness of God for the purpose of reflecting God to the world. From our separate delusional perspectives this effectively places God objectively into the world.

Christ doesn't stop there though, he points out that those who see the truth are no different than he is in conveying God to the world. This is exactly what the early church did, and we can see this confirmed in refering to themselves as "the way".

This is synonymous with "the truth" and "the life". There is only life. There is only Truth. There is only God.

There are practically no Christians anywhere today who would adopt the title of "the way" for themselves. This is blasphemy to the modern Christian as they equate it with divinity. Christ communicates divinity to the world, and those who see that they are not ideas or physical bodies recieve their sight back, and see that there is only Ultimate reality. For all practical purposes, we are all God, but we aren't looking towards God so we don't reflect God. We look to the world around us and can only reflect an illusion. This is what makes Jesus appear to be "God among us".

[EBA]

Pauls writings appear to us as the oldest we have found thus far dating back to about 55-60ad. So, how is acts later than Mark which dates to about 85ad?

We're not talking about when books were written here; we are talking about when these events took place.

The event I cited in Matthew happened well before the Acts.

Peace.