Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 57 by JehovahsWitness]

The passages cumulates with the statement "whatever the Father does the Son also does" is this because they are both Almighty God or is one copying the other? Let us look at the explanations that lead up to this statement.

The Son can do nothing by himself: Certain trinitarians claim Jesus must be Almighty God because Jesus said he can do "nothing by himself". But if Jesus (the Son) were Almighty, all powerful (omnipotent) then there would be no limit to what he could do. By admitting the Son cannot act independently he is therefore admitting the Son cannot be the omnipotent God for whom no such limits can exist.

he can do only what he sees his Father doing Jesus expresses further limits admitting, he can only do "what he sees his Father doing" so here Jesus is not speaking of the Father and son acting in unison, but rather one acting/doing and one seeing (watching) the action. Evidently then the Father can do things without the son actively participating but the son can only do that which he has seen.

1) Simply pointing out the Son is not the Father is not a refutation of Jesus' deity. If I was a modalist then perhaps but Trintarianism is quite distinct from this view. In the same way, pointing out a woman is different from a man does not immediately refute her claim to being a human, unless you define being a human as being a man.

2) You seem to be claiming Jesus has a limit to his power, but John 5:19 makes clear whatever the Father does the Son does also. The Son's power is used to honour, obey and submit to the Father. Yes this contradicts human understandings of power, but why should we be constrained by views of power shaped by observing despotic control freaks? As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:

22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

God's power is shown most clearly in weakness and service.

Quote:

Since we have the son unable to act independently and unable to act unless he sees his Father do something but the Father able to do something while the son sees him doing it , they cannot both be equal. The Father can do that which the son cannot.


"whatever the Father does the Son also does" Given the above it is reasonable to conclude that the unity of action here expressed is NOT they are both Almighty God and equal but because Jesus is God's best student that sees and imitates his superior, always actings as he has been taught.

Again this is saying the Father and the Son have different roles, therefore the Son cannot be Almighty God. It doesn't logically follow unless you've already presupposed the Father alone is Almighty God.

Is it really possible that someone who is not God can study such that they are capable of doing whatever the Father does? Where in Scripture does it teach this? In order to deny Jesus's deity in this passage leads ultimately to incoherence.

[bjs]

[Replying to dakoski]


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[The Tanager]

I hope this is seen as being on topic, since passages from John are brought to bear on the interpretation of Mark 2, but if moderators think not, we can continue this discussion elsewhere if you want.

The Tanager wrote:

Point #2: Jesus has the power, of Himself (i.e., not by having the Holy Spirit), to forgive sins according to Mark 2, so He must be God.

The meaning of the scripture in mark is the point under contention, it is circular to point to your conclusion as argumentation for your conclusion.

You don't understand the argument. That was point #2. Point #1, which you haven't responded to, comes before point #2. I'll try to put it another way.

P1: Only God has the power to forgive sins (based on the Tanakh).
P2: Jesus has the power to forgive sins (based on Mark 2).
C: Therefore, Jesus is God.

Some people think John 20:19-23 shows P1 to be false, because it shows that humans have the power to forgive sins. In one sense, yes, but not in the sense we are talking about. They cannot forgive sins in their own presence or power. The disciples' authority to forgive sins is directly tied to having the Holy Spirit within them. Without the Holy Spirit of God living inside of them they cannot forgive sins. So, this verse supports P1.

Someone might say that P2 might be false in this same way, that Jesus cannot forgive sins on His own, that His authority to forgive sins is directly tied to having the Holy Spirit within him. But Mark 2 does not say that. And, to my knowledge, the rest of Mark does not say that, the rest of John does not say that, the other gospels do not say that and the rest of Scripture does not say that.

Okay well you could have spared us both a lot of time if you had simply said this to begin with. I dont agree that John 1:1 proves Jesus is God.

You had misunderstood my point earlier (I was probably less clear than I could have been), thinking that I was comparing when the disciples and Jesus received the Holy Spirit and, therefore, gained the authority to forgive sins. I then said that I was not saying that, because I don't think Jesus received the Holy Spirit like the disciples did. I think Jesus' authority to forgive sins comes from the same thing it does for the Holy Spirit, namely, that they are both God, along with the Father.

Some people would say Jesus received the Holy Spirit at His baptism and then try to say that is when He got the authority to forgive sins, so I thought I'd address that. John 1:29-34 does not show this. It shows the Spirit descending on Jesus as a sign to John. I think Mark's account of the baptism in Mark 1:4-11 is similar.

Because of this misunderstanding, it would be helpful to look at what John says about when Jesus gained the powers He has. That is why I only then turned to John 1:1 and what it says. It says that Jesus is eternal and God. Jesus has His powers eternally. One of those powers is the power to forgive sins, untied to the Holy Spirit being within Him like it must be for the disciples to be able to forgive sins. Therefore, John 20:19-23 does not do what tigger2 thought it did, i.e., contradict my interpretation of Mark 2.

Why do you disagree with that interpretation of John 1:1?

[JehovahsWitness]

P1: Only God has the power to forgive sins (based on the Tanakh).
P2: Jesus has the power to forgive sins (based on Mark 2).
C: Therefore, Jesus is God.

We have already agreed that God can give the authority to forgive sin. Do you have any scripture (apart from John 1:1) to prove that Jesus authority was not given to him rather than innate?

I understand you have written your belief that this was not so but what is lacking is scripture to prove that belief.

[The Tanager]

We have already agreed that God can give the authority to forgive sin. Do you have any scripture (apart from John 1:1) to prove that Jesus authority was not given to him rather than innate?

I understand you have written your belief that this was not so but what is lacking is scripture to prove that belief.

We didn't agree to that. We were talking about John 20:19-23 and agreed that this passage shows that "someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person is literally Almighty God." Are you saying that you believe this passage shows God can give the authority to forgive sin?

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay, so if we have established from the bible that.....

"someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person [receiving] is literally Almighty God."

why can that someone " given the authority " not be Jesus?


JW

[2timothy316]

Okay, so if we have established from the bible that.....

"someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person [receiving] is literally Almighty God."

why can that someone " given the authority " not be Jesus?


JW

"But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you." - Ephesians 4:32

According to the logic 'only God can forgive' this scripture is saying those that obey this commandment are Gods. Note the scripture says to forgive 'just as' God does. So it's not a different type forgiveness.

I think the real issue in question is not forgiveness of sin but removal of sin. While we all can forgive, none of us can remove the sinful nature from a person or remove sin from someone's body. Even Jesus while on earth didn't have the authority to completely remove sin from a person. Why not and how do we know that? He had not yet died, is why not. There was no legal way to that until he died. How we know he didn't have authority to remove sin completely from a person is because the people Jesus healed still died. The wages sin pays is death. (Romans 6:23) If sin was fully removed then they would have never died.

[The Tanager]

Okay, so if we have established from the bible that.....


Quote:

"someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person [receiving] is literally Almighty God."


why can that someone " given the authority " not be Jesus?

Remember how I said I was saying more than just agreeing with this statement (when you first asked)? That is because this statement is not specific enough to address our disagreement. The story in John 20:19-23 provides us with two facts about the disciples (that we've been talking about). First, let's call it the A-clause, where we see the disciples have the authority to forgive sins. Second, let's call it the S-clause, where we see the disciples have the authority to forgive sins because of the Presence of the Holy Spirit breathed into them. So, a more complete statement established from the passage is that "someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person [receiving] is literally Almighty God if God is literally present within them via the Holy Spirit."

Let's look at the logical form of this statement. Above we have a statement that A can happen if S happens. Or, in other words, "If S, then A." You are asking why we cannot apply this conditional statement to Jesus. I am saying we can't because we don't have anything showing the S-clause is true about Jesus. Jesus does not have the Holy Spirit breathed into Him and have the authority to forgive sins tied to this in Scripture I'm aware of.

I think another conditional statement we both believe is true is that If G, then A. If you are God, then you have the authority to forgive sins. Do we have any Scriptural reason to believe that the G-clause is true about Jesus? And this is where I bring up John 1:1. The same author who gave us the S-clause conditional concerning the disciples and does not use that to speak about Jesus, gives us the G-clause of the above conditional (which I don't think John would disagree with, but he doesn't present it that way) concerning Jesus at the very start of his account. You are just dismissing that and asking for another verse. But I think that would be more appropriate for the other, less narrow thread. The only reason I bring it up here is because it is within the same book as the text that was brought up that supposedly counters my interpretation of Mark 2. So, why do you not believe John 1:1 is calling Jesus God?

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay, so if we have established from the bible that.....


Quote:

"someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person [receiving] is literally Almighty God."


why can that someone " given the authority " not be Jesus?

Remember how I said I was saying more than just agreeing with this statement (when you first asked)? That is because this statement is not specific enough to address our disagreement. ?

Exactly. We know giving authority to forgive sins can be delegated but will need to look elsewhere to establish if this was the case forJesus. So outside of John 1:1 what scripture are you going to use as recall? It can't be Mark 2 (since it's the scripture in question) I presume its not John 20, so which scripture are you turning to to support your point?

I don't think you are suggesting that Jesus wasn't filled with holy spirit, so we need to establish how got it. There is no question he had authority to forgive sins, the question is how he got that authority. If you are suggestion both were innate and not received from a higher source, you will have to prove that with scripture.

Which scripture are you suggesting proves this point?



JW

[The Tanager]

Exactly. We know giving authority to forgive sins can be delegated but will need to look elsewhere to establish if this was the case forJesus. So outside of John 1:1 what scripture are you going to use as recall? It can't be Mark 2 (since it's the scripture in question) I presume its not John 20, so which scripture are you turning to to support your point?

We are ultimately talking about Mark 2. The question there is where Jesus' ability to forgive sins comes from. John 20 gives us one way that can happen (the If-S conditional, as I called it). There is another way that can happen (the If-G conditional, as I called it). I don't see where the John 20 way applies to Jesus in Scripture, but feel free to point that Scripture out. I bring in John 1:1 to show how the If-G conditional applies to Jesus. I don't see why I need to have a verse outside of John 1:1 to show this, unless you can show it definitely does not show Jesus is God. There are other verses (as you are aware from that other thread we are talking in right now), but I'm not sure why you think John 1:1 shouldn't be talked about.