Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John

[Elijah John]

Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John did Jesus teach anything that even comes close to "Jesus worship"?

Where, in the Synoptics did Jesus ever say anything like "The Father is glorified in the Son"?

Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?

If the latter, why do so many modern Christians worship Jesus?

Does the Jesus-worshiper even care at all what Jesus most probably actually taught on this essential matter?

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]

No, I don't think there are any teachings from Jesus that one should worship him or place his holiness to be above the Father's. The fact that he allowed people to worship him without rebuking them lends me to believe that it was not sinful in that people still knew that his Father was the highest almighty. But it would be sinful if Jesus was solely a man and not on the level of God. He would definitely rebuke people in that regard, so the fact that he didn't also supports my belief that Jesus is on the level of God and worthy of praise and worship.

I think the original disciples and all writers in the NT were aware of the Father's almightiness and holiness. Look at the transfiguration. When the Father speaks, the disciples fall on their face trembling in fear.

What verses are you referring to where Jesus is placed above the Father and it is taught to worship him without regard for the Father? Also, what is the definition we are using for worship here?

[bjs]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

I remember something about actions speaking louder than words.

If Jesus actively accepted worship as an adult (as Matthew 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, and Luke 24:52 all say that he did), that would seem far more impactful then him simply telling people to worship him.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 8 by steveb1]

What is your stance? Where do you place Jesus in Christianity? Was he solely a man, like Moses and the other prophets? Was he on the level of an angel? Was he slightly above the level of angels? Was he immensely above the level of angels? Did he exist before his human birth in the NT?

I have said what I believe Jesus to be. What do you think he is (If you don't personally believe in Christianity, then who do you think the bible intends him to be)?

Yes, I believe that Jesus, according to the NT, was being conceptualized as an archangelic, pre-existent heavenly celestial figure, "standing" at the Father's side/next to the Father's throne. Jesus himself testifies to this special status in the Synoptic reports of his Sanhedrin trial.

At the trial, Jesus tells Caiaphas and the other judges that he is the heavenly Son of Man. The celestial Son of Man, delineated in the book of Daniel, is a cloud-dwelling, pre-existent spiritual entity, who is ceremoniously presented before God ("the Ancient of Days") in heaven. At his trial, Jesus says that he, as this heavenly archangel, will return among his clouds with great glory, accompanied by "Power" (the living Presence of God). Naturally, any backwoods preacher claiming to be a pre-existent angelic companion of YHWH, would be condemned by orthodox Jews as a representative of the "Two Powers in Heaven" messianic belief - a belief that later rabbis would be quick to quell. That is the origin of the sorcery and blasphemy charges against Jesus.

Also, the NT, especially in Hebrews, does present Jesus as above the angels, but that is not surprising, because 1) an ARCH-angel is already "above" all the other garden-variety angels, and 2) and most importantly, out of all his angelic "Sons", YHWH permitted Jesus to empty himself of his status of having been in divine "form" or "likeness", to "find himself" in human "form", and to take on the "form" of a servant, obedient unto death.

It is the consideration 2) by which Jesus was at last made "higher" than all the other angelic "Sons". None of them ever underwent "incarnation", or took on human "form", or donned the "form" of a servant. That is what elevated "Angel Jesus" to a status higher than all other heavenly beings, except of course, God the Father.

So it is clear that Jesus's claim to be a pre-existent assisting angel is sufficient per se to understand his claims of oneness with the Father. A Trinitarian Son, therefore, is an arbitrary and unnecessary addition and complication of Jesus's original claim about his pre-existent nature and identity. It was only with the later Hellenistic, Greco-Roman Church Councils that the Jewish, monotheistic Son of Man was illegitimately transformed into "God the Son", and the seeds of Trinitarianism were planted in a formerly monotheistic Christianity.

That's what the NT intends Jesus to be understood - as highly placed angel, especially exalted as the pre-existent celestial Son of Man in the clouds, and then doubly exalted by becoming a servant who functioned as God's Kingdom agent, Son, and redeemer in his "incarnate" state.

I don't know if you have the time and/or the funding, but here is a recent book that delineates this theory forcefully and quite briefly. The title is a bit misleading because it's not really so much about the Jewish Gospels, but about the incarnation of Jesus the heavenly angel/Son of Man:



Other authors also deal with this topic: Alan F. Segal, Susan R. Garrett, Margaret Barker, and others.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

I think you make the best case that can be made, drawing on Scripture. But notice, the angel did not say "worship Jesus", the angel said "Worship God!.

Did the angel equate Jesus with God?

[Elijah John]

What verses are you referring to where Jesus is placed above the Father and it is taught to worship him without regard for the Father? Also, what is the definition we are using for worship here?

Not so much verses, but practice of many Christians today. More hymns dedicated to Jesus than the Father. More litanies, etc.

Case in point. I recently aquired a hymnal, and among the hymns is one entitled, "Hallowed be the Name". Whose name do you suppose the song refers to? The Father, as Jesus taught? No, the hymn hallows the name of Jesus!

Just heard on TBN as I type this, someone said "our Jesus-loving staff". Reminds me of the line from Thomas Paine about Christianity "instead of God, a man is preached".

But regarding verses, I was thinking about several that put the name of name of Jesus "above every name" Presumably above even the name of the Father Himself.

This in contrast to the Psalms, and the Hebrew Bible in general. The greatest name in that Testament is that of the LORD, (YHVH), not the Messiah.

Also the verse which indicates that to Jesus "every knee will bow". In the Hebrew Bible, by contrast, it is not to the Messiah but to YHVH, as God through the prophet Isiah puts it people will bow to YHVH and say "only in YHVH is righteousness and strength".

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

I remember something about actions speaking louder than words.

If Jesus actively accepted worship as an adult (as Matthew 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, and Luke 24:52 all say that he did), that would seem far more impactful then him simply telling people to worship him.

Move impactful? Maybe. But that would be at odds with his rebuke to "worship the LORD (YHVH) alone, and him only serve". And also to address one's prayers to the Father, not to Jesus.

I wonder...it it possible that Jesus "accepted" worship sometimes because he just didn't want to be rude? I know, far-fetched, Jesus was not afraid to confront and rebuke even his disciples. But perhaps in those moments he was feeeling, shall we say, more tactful and diplomatic. Another possibility is that the real Jesus didn't accept any worship, but the Gospel Evangelists invented those accounts. But I do realize that theory is not authoritative in TD+D.

[dio9]

Jesus was a human 100% human, and according to the Greek fathers ( who carried Christianity after the gospel age) also100% God. What a great logical impossibility. Leaving each believer in a mystery as to what this means, to be wholly God and wholly Man? John writes about a pre-existant Logos "Word" .

Logos strikes me as an idea in the mind of God. John's prologue means Adam and the necessary savior Jesus existed in the mind of God , before Adam was created and Jesus was born. God had and continues to have a Logos for creation and the necessary salvation.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

Except that no one ever "worshiped" Jesus in a Trinitarian sense. The Bible uses "worship" in describing adulation directed to God, but it also uses the term in describing veneration of heroes, judges, prophets, kings and holy people. Nowhere in the NT is worship directed to Jesus as God, but only to the Father.

Ditto prayer - in the NT, no one prays to Jesus AS GOD. On the contrary, they pray only to the Father, "through Jesus", "in Jesus", or "in Jesus's name". The Maranatha prayer is a simple request to Jesus Messiah to return "soon". Stephen's prayer that Jesus receive him in heaven is, again, a prayer to the Son of Man standing next to the Father. Etc.

The NT contains no worship of Jesus as God and directs no prayer to Jesus as God. That's because the NT doesn't consider Jesus to be God, but rather to be the pre-existent celestial archangel who by his incarnation, suffering, death and resurrection was elevated above all other angels.

Thomas's "My Lord and my God" is not worship of Jesus, but rather a cry to the Father by whose will Jesus was raised up. The entire context has nothing to do with Jesus's "deity", but rather with faith in his resurrection. When Thomas, the last apostle to see the risen Jesus finally sees him, he knows that the resurrection stories told by the other disciples were true. Resurrection, not "Jesus's divinity".

So my claim remains the same: Jesus said that he was the heavenly Son of Man - the archangelic pre-existent figure who lived in the clouds of heaven. No Trinitarian Son need be superimposed on Jesus's claim to be the Son of Man.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

Except that no one ever "worshiped" Jesus in a Trinitarian sense. The Bible uses "worship" in describing adulation directed to God, but it also uses the term in describing veneration of heroes, judges, prophets, kings and holy people. Nowhere in the NT is worship directed to Jesus as God, but only to the Father.

Ditto prayer - in the NT, no one prays to Jesus AS GOD. On the contrary, they pray only to the Father, "through Jesus", "in Jesus", or "in Jesus's name". The Maranatha prayer is a simple request to Jesus Messiah to return "soon". Stephen's prayer that Jesus receive him in heaven is, again, a prayer to the Son of Man standing next to the Father. Etc.

The NT contains no worship of Jesus as God and directs no prayer to Jesus as God. That's because the NT doesn't consider Jesus to be God, but rather to be the pre-existent celestial archangel who by his incarnation, suffering, death and resurrection was elevated above all other angels.

Thomas's "My Lord and my God" is not worship of Jesus, but rather a cry to the Father by whose will Jesus was raised up. The entire context has nothing to do with Jesus's "deity", but rather with faith in his resurrection. When Thomas, the last apostle to see the risen Jesus finally sees him, he knows that the resurrection stories told by the other disciples were true. Resurrection, not "Jesus's divinity".

So my claim remains the same: Jesus said that he was the heavenly Son of Man - the archangelic pre-existent figure who lived in the clouds of heaven. No Trinitarian Son need be superimposed on Jesus's claim to be the Son of Man.

Your claim remains and so does mine. Angels and archangels are not worshipped, only God. Jesus was repeatedly worshipped and would have rebuked those for worshipping him if he was merely an angel. You can't simply say he was worshipped in a different manner. Look at these two verses:

Matthew 28:9
And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

-----

So John falls at the feet in worship of an angel, and the angel rebukes him. But the two Mary's fall at Jesus' feet to worship him after he has risen, and they are not rebuked by him. Your only defense is that there are different kinds of worship. But in both of these cases, all we see written is people falling at the feet in worship. You have to jump through hoops to label the worshipping as different in order to make sense of your own beliefs.

But I would be open to hearing about the different kinds of worship that you are emphasizing. Please provide verses in the bible where kings, heroes, prophets, judges, and holy people are worshipped. Specifically "worship" must be used in those verses. Once you have done that, I will give more regard to your notion of worship having different meanings in the bible. Until then, I only see worship being done for Godly beings in the bible, not for angels or archangels or anything else (at least by the righteous. The unrighteous worship whatever they please).