Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John

[Elijah John]

Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John did Jesus teach anything that even comes close to "Jesus worship"?

Where, in the Synoptics did Jesus ever say anything like "The Father is glorified in the Son"?

Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?

If the latter, why do so many modern Christians worship Jesus?

Does the Jesus-worshiper even care at all what Jesus most probably actually taught on this essential matter?

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 25 by onewithhim]

Thank you for that example. After digging through google search, I found other examples of worship being directed towards kings, angels, and even holy people without rebuke being given. This site discusses the topic and gives many citations from verses:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstr ... lical.html

So I will agree with you that there are different kinds of worship. When that worship is perceived to be more out of respect, then the people are not rebuked. When it is perceived to be Godly adoration, then they are rebuked by the non-Godly beings who were the target of their worship.

So as I see it we are left with two possibilities for the worship towards Jesus that he didn't rebuke:
1) They worshipped him in the more respectful manner rather than Godly manner, so he had no need to rebuke them if he wasn't God.
2) They worshipped him as Godly, and since he qualifies as God he didn't rebuke them.

For now I see it as being left up to personal opinion as to the kind of worship they gave to Jesus. And ultimately this conversation will evolve into a battle of all the scripture pointing to Jesus being God vs. Jesus not being God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 25 by onewithhim]

Thank you for that example. After digging through google search, I found other examples of worship being directed towards kings, angels, and even holy people without rebuke being given. This site discusses the topic and gives many citations from verses:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstr ... lical.html

So I will agree with you that there are different kinds of worship. When that worship is perceived to be more out of respect, then the people are not rebuked. When it is perceived to be Godly adoration, then they are rebuked by the non-Godly beings who were the target of their worship.

So as I see it we are left with two possibilities for the worship towards Jesus that he didn't rebuke:
1) They worshipped him in the more respectful manner rather than Godly manner, so he had no need to rebuke them if he wasn't God.
2) They worshipped him as Godly, and since he qualifies as God he didn't rebuke them.

For now I see it as being left up to personal opinion as to the kind of worship they gave to Jesus. And ultimately this conversation will evolve into a battle of all the scripture pointing to Jesus being God vs. Jesus not being God.

Perhaps, but if you were to make a list comparing the two, you would see that the Scriptures showing plainly that Jesus is not God Almighty would far out-weigh the side of the comparison that insists that he is.

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 25 by onewithhim]

Thank you for that example. After digging through google search, I found other examples of worship being directed towards kings, angels, and even holy people without rebuke being given. This site discusses the topic and gives many citations from verses:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstr ... lical.html

So I will agree with you that there are different kinds of worship. When that worship is perceived to be more out of respect, then the people are not rebuked. When it is perceived to be Godly adoration, then they are rebuked by the non-Godly beings who were the target of their worship.

So as I see it we are left with two possibilities for the worship towards Jesus that he didn't rebuke:
1) They worshipped him in the more respectful manner rather than Godly manner, so he had no need to rebuke them if he wasn't God.
2) They worshipped him as Godly, and since he qualifies as God he didn't rebuke them.

For now I see it as being left up to personal opinion as to the kind of worship they gave to Jesus. And ultimately this conversation will evolve into a battle of all the scripture pointing to Jesus being God vs. Jesus not being God.

Perhaps, but if you were to make a list comparing the two, you would see that the Scriptures showing plainly that Jesus is not God Almighty would far out-weigh the side of the comparison that insists that he is.

Well, I'm not gonna get into a battle of the lists. But just out of curiosity what do you believe Jesus to be? Steveb interprets him as an archangel. What about you?

[bjs]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

I remember something about actions speaking louder than words.

If Jesus actively accepted worship as an adult (as Matthew 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, and Luke 24:52 all say that he did), that would seem far more impactful then him simply telling people to worship him.

Move impactful? Maybe. But that would be at odds with his rebuke to "worship the LORD (YHVH) alone, and him only serve". And also to address one's prayers to the Father, not to Jesus.

I wonder...it it possible that Jesus "accepted" worship sometimes because he just didn't want to be rude? I know, far-fetched, Jesus was not afraid to confront and rebuke even his disciples. But perhaps in those moments he was feeeling, shall we say, more tactful and diplomatic. Another possibility is that the real Jesus didn't accept any worship, but the Gospel Evangelists invented those accounts. But I do realize that theory is not authoritative in TD+D.

EJ, if I may be so bold, do you consider either of these to be genuinely plausible explanations?

Do you genuinely think that, if Jesus did not think he was God, he would have participated in idolatry go in order to not be rude? I find it immensely more likely that Jesus, if were not God, would have responded as Paul and Barnabas did in Acts 14 when people tried to worship them. They ran out and caused a huge scene, shouting for people not to worship them.

Or do you truly take the attitude that the Evangelists invented the accounts you don’t agree with? What’s the point of considering the historical Jesus at all if we are going to imagine what we wish Jesus was like and the declare anything that doesn’t fit our mental picture to be fictional?

[Elijah John]

Or do you truly take the attitude that the Evangelists invented the accounts you don’t agree with? What’s the point of considering the historical Jesus at all if we are going to imagine what we wish Jesus was like and the declare anything that doesn’t fit our mental picture to be fictional?

That accussation is an oft repeated one here, which I resent. I didn't make this stuff up. All along, I have noticed discrepenacies with the letters of Paul and the Jesus of the Synoptics. And the Jesus of the Synoptics, vs John's Jesus.

I had such notions in the back of my mind, and then discovered the crack in the facade of Bible perfection, namely Matthew 16.28. I wan't looking for it, but that erronous prediction found me.

And that opened my mind to historical Jesus scholars such as Crossan and Borg, and John Shelby Spong. Their research, and that of people like Geza Vermes before them, supports my vision of Jesus, and not the vision of the "God-man", the mythologized Jesus spoon fed to so many by the Church.

I am convinced that Trinitarians are worshipping an innocent man, who never asked for any of this.

[Elijah John]

EJ, if I may be so bold, do you consider either of these to be genuinely plausible explanations?

Do you genuinely think that, if Jesus did not think he was God, he would have participated in idolatry go in order to not be rude? I find it immensely more likely that Jesus, if were not God, would have responded as Paul and Barnabas did in Acts 14 when people tried to worship them. They ran out and caused a huge scene, shouting for people not to worship them.

Or do you truly take the attitude that the Evangelists invented the accounts you don’t agree with? What’s the point of considering the historical Jesus at all if we are going to imagine what we wish Jesus was like and the declare anything that doesn’t fit our mental picture to be fictional?

When I said "I wonder" then followed it with the question "is is possible that.." that was an indication that I was engaging in speculation. Throwing it out there. But your example of Paul and Barnabus rejecting worship is a good rebuttal and pretty much sinks my theory there of why Jesus many have "accepted" worship. May have. We differ in that I do not believe everyting the Gospel Evangelists write verbatim, and at face value.

Yes, I do believe they indulged in, shall we say "poetic license" to put it charitably. Almost certainly they put words on Jesus' lips. John especially. I think what probably happened is that the Gospel Evangelists were coming around to the position that "Jesus was God". For all practical purposes, they spoke of him in ways OT writers only spoke of God, but they hesitated to come out and explicitly say "Jesus is God" the way OT writers said simply and plainly over and over that "YHVH (the LORD) is God".. Or having Jesus say "I am God".

Had they done so, they could have kissed the idea of winning any Jews to the Jesus movement "goodbye". I think they realized that.

It is not a matter of "what I agree with" or do not agree with as you (and others) dismissively put it. I don't like everthing I believe the real Jesus said. For example, his use of hyperbole is off-putting, his admonition to hate one's parents etc. But I do believe he said those things. I understand that Jesus probably did not mean those things literally, but still the way he put it is needelssly offensive. Imprecise at best, desigined to shock and garner attention more probably. So please, refrain from the accusations of my "attempting to design a Jesus to my liking". That is a cheap shot. Not just you, but other "by the Book" Christians have resorted to that tactic as well.

I could easliy come back with a counter-accusation that those who view the Bible as perfect and infallible in every detail are spoon fed that approach with indoctrination from their youth. And approach the Bible uncritically, and without attempting to read it for themselves.

Do we really want to go down that road?As we both know, trading accusations is not honororable debate.