Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John did Jesus teach anything that even comes close to "Jesus worship"?
Where, in the Synoptics did Jesus ever say anything like "The Father is glorified in the Son"?
Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?
If the latter, why do so many modern Christians worship Jesus?
Does the Jesus-worshiper even care at all what Jesus most probably actually taught on this essential matter?
Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
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Elijah John
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Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
Most Jesus-worshipers not only don't care what Jesus taught about his real relation to God, but they are actually compelled to worship Jesus and to believe that this is what he taught people to do. The compelling factor is Trinitarianism, which erroneously raised Jesus to the status of ontological deity.
For them, it doesn't matter that Jesus explicitly excluded himself from the Godhead in John 17:3; that he prayed to God; that he even had a God ("I ascend to your God and to my God"); that he prayed to, listened to, and obeyed the will and word of God (God can't have a God, pray to or obey God); that while Paul and John attributed pre-existence to Jesus, they never identified him with the Father in heaven; that in the entire NT, not one prayer is addressed to Jesus as God.
Trinitarians believe that their salvation depends on right belief. For them, right belief's chief cornerstone is the purported deity of Christ. Without a God-Man who died for their sins, they believe that they cannot be saved. They are under the doctrinal gun. Even the slightest "aberration" or deviation from "Christ is God" belief places them under interdict, an interdict not imposed by God or by Christ, but rather by their own toxic Trinitarianism itself.
Most Jesus-worshipers not only don't care what Jesus taught about his real relation to God, but they are actually compelled to worship Jesus and to believe that this is what he taught people to do. The compelling factor is Trinitarianism, which erroneously raised Jesus to the status of ontological deity.
For them, it doesn't matter that Jesus explicitly excluded himself from the Godhead in John 17:3; that he prayed to God; that he even had a God ("I ascend to your God and to my God"); that he prayed to, listened to, and obeyed the will and word of God (God can't have a God, pray to or obey God); that while Paul and John attributed pre-existence to Jesus, they never identified him with the Father in heaven; that in the entire NT, not one prayer is addressed to Jesus as God.
Trinitarians believe that their salvation depends on right belief. For them, right belief's chief cornerstone is the purported deity of Christ. Without a God-Man who died for their sins, they believe that they cannot be saved. They are under the doctrinal gun. Even the slightest "aberration" or deviation from "Christ is God" belief places them under interdict, an interdict not imposed by God or by Christ, but rather by their own toxic Trinitarianism itself.
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Elijah John
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Re: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #3I would say 'many" as opposed to most. Many here, for example, do not seem to care what Jesus taught on the matter of who to worship. They seem to have their mind made up to worship Jesus whether he asked for it or not.steveb1 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
Most Jesus-worshipers not only don't care what Jesus taught about his real relation to God
Agreed. The doctrine of the Trinity gives them cover to worship Jesus. Wrongly, from my point of view. Even Trinitarians (clergy anyway) when pressed will say that the Father is the proper object of worship, this without denying that they still consider Jesus to be "God" as well. All the while leading their congregations in singing hymns to Jesus.steveb1 wrote: , but they are actually compelled to worship Jesus and to believe that this is what he taught people to do. The compelling factor is Trinitarianism, which erroneously raised Jesus to the status of ontological deity.
Well said, well reasoned. Ironic, though, that John himself (or John's Jesus) seems conflicted on the matter of Jesus' Divinity. His prologue, and the "I AM" statements for example, seem to internally contradict John's other verses, like 17.3, the verse that you cite. In general though, in spite of verses like 17.3 and some others, John has Jesus going around acting as though he thinks (or John thinks) he is "God". I am the Vine, etc., and "I am the Good Shepherd" etc. And in various ways grapsing for the glory of God.steveb1 wrote: For them, it doesn't matter that Jesus explicitly excluded himself from the Godhead in John 17:3; that he prayed to God; that he even had a God ("I ascend to your God and to my God"); that he prayed to, listened to, and obeyed the will and word of God (God can't have a God, pray to or obey God); that while Paul and John attributed pre-existence to Jesus, they never identified him with the Father in heaven; that in the entire NT, not one prayer is addressed to Jesus as God.
Good point. And believing that "Jesus is God" shields the Trintarian from the notion that Jesus sacrifice on the cross amounts to human sacrifice. At least a special case of human sacrifice. So the two docrines do seem to be linked, at least to a degree.steveb1 wrote: Trinitarians believe that their salvation depends on right belief. For them, right belief's chief cornerstone is the purported deity of Christ. Without a God-Man who died for their sins, they believe that they cannot be saved. They are under the doctrinal gun. Even the slightest "aberration" or deviation from "Christ is God" belief places them under interdict, an interdict not imposed by God or by Christ, but rather by their own toxic Trinitarianism itself.
After all, if Jesus is "God" his sacrifice on the cross amounts to God sacrificing Himself to Himself in order to give Himself permission to forgive the sins of humanity.
Such a notion brings it's own logical and theological problems, it seems.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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onewithhim
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Re: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #4As I have posted previously many times, John did not say anything that would promote Jesus-worship. His words have been twisted beyond anything he would recognize. In fact, it is crystal clear to anyone actually reading the Gospel of John that Jesus was subordinate to his Father (who he called "my God").Elijah John wrote: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John did Jesus teach anything that even comes close to "Jesus worship"?
Where, in the Synoptics did Jesus ever say anything like "The Father is glorified in the Son"?
Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?
If the latter, why do so many modern Christians worship Jesus?
Does the Jesus-worshiper even care at all what Jesus most probably actually taught on this essential matter?
Jesus wasn't actually quoted as saying "the Father is glorified in the Son" in the Synoptics, but he is recorded as encouraging Father-glorification with whatever he did.
"Jesus said to him [a blind man]: 'Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.' And instantly he recovered sight, and he began to follow him, glorifying God. Also, all the people, at seeing it, gave praise to God." (Luke 18:42,43)
"[Jesus] said to the paralytic: 'Get up, pick up your bed, and go to your home.' And he got up and went off to his home. At the sight of this the crowds were struck with fear, and they glorified God, who gave such authority to men." (Matthew 9:6-8)
"The crowd felt amazement as they saw the dumb speaking and the lame walking and the blind seeing, and they glorified the God of Israel." (Matt.15:31)
"In reply Jesus said [to the one leper who thanked Jesus]: 'The ten were cleansed, were they not? Where, then, are the other nine? Were none found that turned back to give glory to God but this man of another nation?'" (Luke 17:17,18)
I think that it is pretty clear that Jesus did what he did to bring glory to his Father, so John was not wrong to quote Jesus as saying, "The Father is glorified in the Son," because that was the truth, as evidenced in the accounts of what Jesus did.
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onewithhim
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Re: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #5[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
In addition, Jesus did not promote worship of himself, at all. Never. Many people insist on Jesus-worship because that is what the religions of Christendom teach, in spite of what Jesus himself said! I find that most people do not actually familiarize themselves with the Scriptures, but take their clergy's word for everything. Why do the clergymen of Christendom teach Jesus-worship? To keep their churches going, in the traditions of former times, which go right back to the end of the first century when the great Apostacy settled in (which the Apostles and Jesus himself prophesied). If the clergy today started teaching the truth about Jesus and his Father, everyone would leave the churches and then where would their influence and income be? It is exactly as the religious leaders of Jesus' day said about Jesus' teaching. They said that if they allowed him to keep on preaching the things he preached then everyone would believe him and they would have no more power! (John 11:48)
In addition, Jesus did not promote worship of himself, at all. Never. Many people insist on Jesus-worship because that is what the religions of Christendom teach, in spite of what Jesus himself said! I find that most people do not actually familiarize themselves with the Scriptures, but take their clergy's word for everything. Why do the clergymen of Christendom teach Jesus-worship? To keep their churches going, in the traditions of former times, which go right back to the end of the first century when the great Apostacy settled in (which the Apostles and Jesus himself prophesied). If the clergy today started teaching the truth about Jesus and his Father, everyone would leave the churches and then where would their influence and income be? It is exactly as the religious leaders of Jesus' day said about Jesus' teaching. They said that if they allowed him to keep on preaching the things he preached then everyone would believe him and they would have no more power! (John 11:48)
Re: Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John
Post #6[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]
Yes, certainly it's a case of either a human sacrifice, or an Odin-like sacrifice of the god to himself (in Christianity's case for the forgiveness of sins, which however was already a facet of Judaism and thus unnecessary in any case).
Agreed that I should have written that "some" - not "most" - Christians don't understand Jesus's own Christology. Some in the emergent, progressive churches do, as do the (imo, unfortunately fundamentalistic) "biblical Unitarians" like Sir Anthony Buzzard and some others.
Still … I'm enough of a quasi-literalist (even though I remain interested in the Christ Myth stuff) to want to get my hands on some kind of time travel technology (say, like Arthur C. Clarke's "dial-up" system in Childhood's End) and be a fly on the wall of the intertestamental period and hope to see just what did or didn't happen in those days...
Yes, certainly it's a case of either a human sacrifice, or an Odin-like sacrifice of the god to himself (in Christianity's case for the forgiveness of sins, which however was already a facet of Judaism and thus unnecessary in any case).
Agreed that I should have written that "some" - not "most" - Christians don't understand Jesus's own Christology. Some in the emergent, progressive churches do, as do the (imo, unfortunately fundamentalistic) "biblical Unitarians" like Sir Anthony Buzzard and some others.
Still … I'm enough of a quasi-literalist (even though I remain interested in the Christ Myth stuff) to want to get my hands on some kind of time travel technology (say, like Arthur C. Clarke's "dial-up" system in Childhood's End) and be a fly on the wall of the intertestamental period and hope to see just what did or didn't happen in those days...
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jgh7
Post #7
I don't think Jesus ever taught people to specifically worship him, but he never rebuked those who worshipped him. I'll abide by the rules of ignoring a giant chunk of the Holy Book as is common practice for your topics. The Gospel of John takes a backseat for this thread.
Matthew 2:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Matthew 14:33 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Then those who were in the boat [a]came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.�
Matthew 28:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Women Worship the Risen Lord
9 And [a]as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Matthew 28:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
Luke 24:52 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
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I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all to be worshipped and revered. But I believe prayer and ultimate reverance goes to the Father. I don't judge those who believe Jesus to be God. I myself believe it, maybe not in the same way others do. I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all on the level of God, and the only beings on the level of God. They are the only beings of Godly essence, and they are near infinitely holier than even the holiest of angels. I do believe that the Son obeys the Father, not the other way around. So you could consider the Father to be above the Son in that regard. But the three are still Godly in level, and are the only Godly beings.
Jesus tells people of his true nature here:
Matthew 22:41-45
Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?�
They said to Him, “The Son of David.�
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:
44
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool� ’?
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?� 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
Matthew 2:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Matthew 14:33 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Then those who were in the boat [a]came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.�
Matthew 28:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Women Worship the Risen Lord
9 And [a]as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.
Matthew 28:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
Luke 24:52 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
-----
I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all to be worshipped and revered. But I believe prayer and ultimate reverance goes to the Father. I don't judge those who believe Jesus to be God. I myself believe it, maybe not in the same way others do. I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all on the level of God, and the only beings on the level of God. They are the only beings of Godly essence, and they are near infinitely holier than even the holiest of angels. I do believe that the Son obeys the Father, not the other way around. So you could consider the Father to be above the Son in that regard. But the three are still Godly in level, and are the only Godly beings.
Jesus tells people of his true nature here:
Matthew 22:41-45
Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?�
They said to Him, “The Son of David.�
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:
44
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool� ’?
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?� 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
Post #8
[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]
I doubt that people ever worshiped Jesus in the Trinitarian "God" sense. The Bible uses "worship" not only to designate subordination to God, but also uses the term to indicate reverence to kings, officials, prophets and other kinds of holy people. Thus in the Gospels where it says " 'X' person worshiped Jesus", it means that they gave him high reverence, but the Gospels never imply that they worshiped Jesus AS God. Not only did Jesus exclude himself from the Godhead in John 17:3, he also says that he HAS a God, worships a God, and ascends to God. God does not have a god, does not worship a god, and cannot ascend to God.
Not even Thomas's expression to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" means that Thomas worshiped Jesus as God. First, the story is not about Jesus's supposed deity. It's about Thomas not having witnessed the risen Jesus and his telling the disciples that he won't believe until he sees with his own eyes. The context is not Jesus's purported deity, but rather about Thomas's unbelief.
Jesus appears, give Thomas permission to probe his execution wounds, after which Thomas declares his faith, not in Jesus as God, but in GOD as Lord. That is, Thomas is rendering worship to the Father by whose will Jesus has been raised up.
Had Jesus wanted to be worshiped, surely he would have openly encouraged the practice. And had early Christians worshiped Jesus AS God, NT prayer would be addressed to Jesus AS God. But it isn't. NT prayer is only addressed to the Father, "through" or "in" Jesus, or "in Jesus' name" - NEVER to Jesus AS God. The Maranatha prayer is only to Jesus as Messianic Lord, and is a hopeful request that he return soon. Stephen's outcry to Jesus is not a prayer to Jesus AS God, but again, merely to Jesus as Messianic Lord. In John, Jesus says that the disciples can ask anything in his name and he/and/or the Father will grant it: again, this is asking in Jesus's NAME as the Messianic Son, not as ontological "God".
The NT Jesus was never given divine worship in his lifetime or in the NT texts for the simple reason that the first Christians did not regard him as ontological God.
I doubt that people ever worshiped Jesus in the Trinitarian "God" sense. The Bible uses "worship" not only to designate subordination to God, but also uses the term to indicate reverence to kings, officials, prophets and other kinds of holy people. Thus in the Gospels where it says " 'X' person worshiped Jesus", it means that they gave him high reverence, but the Gospels never imply that they worshiped Jesus AS God. Not only did Jesus exclude himself from the Godhead in John 17:3, he also says that he HAS a God, worships a God, and ascends to God. God does not have a god, does not worship a god, and cannot ascend to God.
Not even Thomas's expression to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" means that Thomas worshiped Jesus as God. First, the story is not about Jesus's supposed deity. It's about Thomas not having witnessed the risen Jesus and his telling the disciples that he won't believe until he sees with his own eyes. The context is not Jesus's purported deity, but rather about Thomas's unbelief.
Jesus appears, give Thomas permission to probe his execution wounds, after which Thomas declares his faith, not in Jesus as God, but in GOD as Lord. That is, Thomas is rendering worship to the Father by whose will Jesus has been raised up.
Had Jesus wanted to be worshiped, surely he would have openly encouraged the practice. And had early Christians worshiped Jesus AS God, NT prayer would be addressed to Jesus AS God. But it isn't. NT prayer is only addressed to the Father, "through" or "in" Jesus, or "in Jesus' name" - NEVER to Jesus AS God. The Maranatha prayer is only to Jesus as Messianic Lord, and is a hopeful request that he return soon. Stephen's outcry to Jesus is not a prayer to Jesus AS God, but again, merely to Jesus as Messianic Lord. In John, Jesus says that the disciples can ask anything in his name and he/and/or the Father will grant it: again, this is asking in Jesus's NAME as the Messianic Son, not as ontological "God".
The NT Jesus was never given divine worship in his lifetime or in the NT texts for the simple reason that the first Christians did not regard him as ontological God.
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Elijah John
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Post #9
[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]
Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.
But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.
But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?
Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?
Or to place his own name above the name of the Father?
Yet that is what happens in the letters of Paul, the book of acts and in Churches every day. (Jesus, not Jehovah, is considered the "name above all names" by Paul and others.)
Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.
But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.
But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?
Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?
Or to place his own name above the name of the Father?
Yet that is what happens in the letters of Paul, the book of acts and in Churches every day. (Jesus, not Jehovah, is considered the "name above all names" by Paul and others.)
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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jgh7
Post #10
[Replying to post 8 by steveb1]
What is your stance? Where do you place Jesus in Christianity? Was he solely a man, like Moses and the other prophets? Was he on the level of an angel? Was he slightly above the level of angels? Was he immensely above the level of angels? Did he exist before his human birth in the NT?
I have said what I believe Jesus to be. What do you think he is (If you don't personally believe in Christianity, then who do you think the bible intends him to be)?
What is your stance? Where do you place Jesus in Christianity? Was he solely a man, like Moses and the other prophets? Was he on the level of an angel? Was he slightly above the level of angels? Was he immensely above the level of angels? Did he exist before his human birth in the NT?
I have said what I believe Jesus to be. What do you think he is (If you don't personally believe in Christianity, then who do you think the bible intends him to be)?
