Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[marco]

What gives you reason to suppose this is true rather than as our saviour He CHOSE by His free will to live His life and die for us?

This is not a question of true or false but one of reading the story and making a deduction. You have read about Jesus and believe he could have digressed from the path given to him. I see no sign of that. In his birth was written his death and as a bouncing baby he could not have chosen. The Father's will pulled his puppet strings. It is inconceivable that he could have refused. After all, God so loved the world that he sacrificed his only son. Similarly, I don't think Isaac had a choice. Abraham decided just as God decided for Jesus.

[2timothy316]

Oops! hit a wrong button and quoted when I wanted to edit.

[marco]

Those 'some' are not my concern.

They would be if you were a doctor. And they are relevant to the argument here, whether you have concern for them or not. They are people who cannot make meaningful choices because the clay from which they were moulded was flawed.

You are entitled to your own interpretation of course. I content that chemistry rubbish has nothing to do with it. The scripture is about being shaped from a 'lump' to something useful for either something honorable or not.

You are battling reality with fiction. There is a rhyme that tells us little boys are made from slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails but we are not meant to believe these are the ingredients of little boys. Nor are we meant to take very much from the potter and the clay, other than God supposedly made the first man and hey presto, others sprang up from the clay. It is a poetic, fictional description. Who witnessed the potter?

[2timothy316]

Those 'some' are not my concern.

They would be if you were a doctor.

I'm not a doctor. This conversation is going off course.

There are warnings on cigarettes too but 'some' people say smoking is not going to harm them. 'Some' are going to think what they want no matter what. I can only inform I can't force so I don't spend time trying.

[2timothy316]

You are battling reality with fiction.

Whatever you choose to believe I wish you well with it.

[marco]

I'm not a doctor. This conversation is going off course.

I think perhaps you have misunderstood what I've been saying.

You are battling reality with fiction.

Whatever you choose to believe I wish you well with it.

It is not a wish but an observation; human body is composed of chemicals (fact);
human body made from a lump of clay (fiction.)

But, yes, we are moving from Christ's lack of free will, though considering the make- up of a human has relevance. Jesus was apparently created to move inexorably to his own execution, by divine decree. A man who walks the plank does not have freedom.

[2timothy316]

It is not a wish but an observation; human body is composed of chemicals (fact);
human body made from a lump of clay (fiction.)

Good thing the scripture is using a metaphor for our desires and choices. It's not discribing what humans are made of. You are the one having this debate alone. What you think a lump of clay literally is, I truly don't care. It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. A lump of clay used to describe a person's desires what I care about.

But, yes, we are moving from Christ's lack of free will, though considering the make- up of a human has relevance. Jesus was apparently created to move inexorably to his own execution, by divine decree. A man who walks the plank does not have freedom.

I take it you are not the type of person that would lay down their life for some one you love. Seeing that you have a choice, would you choose you own life over theirs just so that you can prove you have freedom? Seems quite cynical. Good thing Jesus didn't feel like that.

[ttruscott]

I gather we not talking in scientific terms but are still deep in metaphor. The stupidity behind this potter-clay stuff is that some artefacts are damaged and don't have much choice when the clay sets. It is not the case that we all make informed choices. If you want to use the metaphor we can say that the potter has made some damaged artefacts.

The problem with the metaphor is that it doesn't provide the Why ? of Why did GOD do it this way...?

I contend that we all became evil by our free will with different degrees of animosity and rebellion to YHWH and that our lives, the pots HE creates out of our free will decisions perfectly match the evil in our self chosen nature and since it is perfectly just, the question "Why have you made me like this?" is 'you chose it!'

HE did not make any damaged artifacts; HE gave sinners lives which perfectly expressed the self damage they self created by choosing to be evil in HIS sight.

[ttruscott]

What gives you reason to suppose this is true rather than as our saviour He CHOSE by His free will to live His life and die for us?

This is not a question of true or false but one of reading the story and making a deduction. You have read about Jesus and believe he could have digressed from the path given to him.

Why consider He could not digress when all that is needed is that He would not digress by choice? You claim He could not - what is your proof besides the fact that He did not and said He wouldn't?

[brianbbs67]

HE did not make any damaged artifacts; HE gave sinners lives which perfectly expressed the self damage they self created by choosing to be evil in HIS sight.

Yes, I like this. We create almost all of our hardships by choice.