Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[William]

[Replying to post 138 by EBA]

And neither do you. You believe in limited free will, and as long as your will is limited it ain't free.

No I do not. I have already explained this to you.

It is a matter of interpretation. How one decides to understand the word 'free' .

You have taken an extreme interpretation which amounts to 'if it is limited, it ain't free.'

There is no argument against your interpretation, so to do so is to waste time and energy on a meaningless, pointless, ridiculous, illogical thing.

At least you haven't argued that Jesus had no will.

[2timothy316]

The Bible says all of have sinned and while under the world conditions we are in we will all sin again.

Should't we be able to avoid sin if we have free will?

Peace.

Yes, we can avoid it yet we stumble because of our own desire.

“Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.� (James 1:14, 15)

People sin because of their own desire not because God wills them to sin. Though we can avoid sin our desire gets in the way. Though we want to do the right thing but because of the sin passed down from Adam, it is a struggle. Romans 7:21-25 calls it a war within ourselves.

Not to worry though this war will not last forever. Under the rule of God’s Kingdom, faithful humans “will be set free from enslavement to corruption.�—Romans 8:20-22. In the coming kingdom, our inclination will be to obey God and not rebel. The enmity between man and God will be removed.

[EBA]

The Bible says all of have sinned and while under the world conditions we are in we will all sin again.

Should't we be able to avoid sin if we have free will?

Yes, we can avoid it yet we stumble because of our own desire.

No we cannot avoid sin; not without Christ.

“Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.� (James 1:14, 15) 

No argument with scripture but look:

Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire (desire is a cause)

People sin because of their own desire not because God wills them to sin.

God does not tempt, however God created a spiritual being just for that purpose:

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:4-5)

It is God’s will that we become one:

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (John 17:22)

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Though we can avoid sin our desire gets in the way. Though we want to do the right thing but because of the sin passed down from Adam, it is a struggle. Romans 7:21-25 calls it a war within ourselves. 

Do we sin of our free will or was it as you state, “because of the sin passed down from Adam�? I have no doubt we desire to sin but again desire is a cause.

God intended for Adam and Eve to sin, why else would he place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden?

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:9)

In order for us to “be one, even as we are one� we must know both good and evil:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:(Gen 3:22)

Now there is one other thing we must do in order to to “be one, even as we are one� and that is to:

-take also of the tree of life, and eat,- (Gen 3:22)

And in order to eat from that tree we must be drawn to it:

NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:44)

And if we are drawn to it we cannot claim that we came freely.

Not to worry though this war will not last forever. Under the rule of God’s Kingdom, faithful humans “will be set free from enslavement to corruption.�—Romans 8:20-22. In the coming kingdom, our inclination will be to obey God and not rebel.

That should be our inclination now if we have Christ within us. And if we are to be "set free" then we cannot be free in the first place.

It is God that draws us, we do not by our own will, whether you believe it to be free or not, come to God. Remember, it is human nature to hate God and until God heals us it will remain that way.

God Bless

[brianbbs67]

I take that last quote to mean removing of obstacles. Like the game has ended and we can move forward.

[2timothy316]

The Bible says all of have sinned and while under the world conditions we are in we will all sin again.

Should't we be able to avoid sin if we have free will?

Yes, we can avoid it yet we stumble because of our own desire.

No we cannot avoid sin; not without Christ.

We can't avoid the effects of sin without Christ. We can however avoid sinning. I avoid many sins every day by choice. Admittedly I have also dived head first into sin by choice, through my own desire. Jesus doesn't make us sin or stop us from sinning. He can help us in staying away but the removal of sin from mankind has not been fulfilled yet. If it had then the world would be much better place than it is now.

[2timothy316]

“Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.� (James 1:14, 15) 

No argument with scripture but look:

Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire (desire is a cause)

I'm glad you have no argument with the scripture. And yes desire is a cause and it's our own cause, not Jehovah's or Jesus' cause.

"Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire."

Entice means: attract or tempt by offering pleasure or advantage

We are seeking pleasure to our own causes, our own advantage, not God's.

[2timothy316]

People sin because of their own desire not because God wills them to sin.

God does not tempt, however God created a spiritual being just for that purpose:

In the creation of the Earth in Genesis there is no mention of God creating something to tempt us.

Certainly you can see your statement above is a paradox and a paradox can't exist.

You say God doesn't tempt us but you say He created something to tempt us...that would mean God is tempting us by way of commandment to another being. If Jehovah was the first to set evil in motion then that would make Him the root of all evil. But the Bible says, “The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice.�—Deut 32:4. There is no evil in perfect justice.The Bible says Satan was created faultless, "You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezekiel 28:15.

According to the Bible your accusation against God that He is in any way evil is unscriptural. The perfect and just Jehovah God would never create an evil being to tempt us. That would be the opposite of what Deut 32:4 says. Satan was enticed by his own desire. The Bible says of Satan,"Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor." Ezekiel 28:17. Satan's own selfish pride was his 'cause' not God's will.

[imhereforyou]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

To me, any time anyone claims to be 'following the father's will' or 'the masters plan', they void their own free will.
When someone has to live by faith in something not seen and follow this unseen thing's will, they are not using their own free will (assuming it exists at all).
What is 'seen' in the bible....well, that's up for debate for a few reasons, one of which is who wrote what, when and its intent. Secondly, there are more than a few contradictories written in the bible (lists can be found online, among other places, for those interested). Even the gospels aren't in 100% agreement on details of the same story.

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

To me, any time anyone claims to be 'following the father's will' or 'the masters plan', they void their own free will.
When someone has to live by faith in something not seen and follow this unseen thing's will, they are not using their own free will (assuming it exists at all).
What is 'seen' in the bible....well, that's up for debate for a few reasons, one of which is who wrote what, when and its intent. Secondly, there are more than a few contradictories written in the bible (lists can be found online, among other places, for those interested). Even the gospels aren't in 100% agreement on details of the same story.

You don't void your will by choosing to do something.

Its all just faith, till proof is shown. God says he reveals Himself to all. Whether we see it or not, is us.

I agree, with the New Testament. It begins to contradict itself , right after John. Plus we don't know for sure who wrote the rest(or the previous). Although, much is attributed to Paul. In my study, even the OT(Tanakh), Has many footnotes that say, Meaning of ancient Hebrew unknown. So, we really don't know that either 100%.

The best advice, that I have seen is seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rightouessness. Or like the OT, "draw night unto Me, and I will draw you nigh unto to Me"

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 148 by brianbbs67]

You don't void your will by choosing to do something.

True. But you do when it's the master's plan that you were put here to do.
Jesus (if not him would have been someone else)
Satan (if not him would have been someone else)
Judas (if not him would have been someone else)

Its all just faith, till proof is shown.

Or never proven.

God says he reveals Himself to all. Whether we see it or not, is us.

No the bible says that. You have to have FAITH to accept God said that and that it was quoted directly and correctly, then edited correctly.
If we see it or not is also God's responsibility. Accepting it is ours. Those are two terrible different things as far as I can see.

The best advice, that I have seen is seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rightouessness.

I've done that. To little avail. But to each their own.

I agree, with the New Testament. It begins to contradict itself , right after John. Plus we don't know for sure who wrote the rest(or the previous). Although, much is attributed to Paul. In my study, even the OT(Tanakh), Has many footnotes that say, Meaning of ancient Hebrew unknown. So, we really don't know that either 100%.

To me, that's an ENORMOUS issue. If God can't write a story w/o contradictions OR make sure it's edited correctly....then there's no need for faith. Toss the book in the trash or recycle and move on.
But many don't do that because it scratches the itch they've been told they have.