Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[William]

[Replying to post 59 by 2timothy316]

Well - you can believe that Jesus did not have any fear - the OP is about whether he had free will anyway. The story reads as if fear was involved, but if it suits your idealism to see him as facing this event fearlessly, that is your prerogative.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 59 by 2timothy316]

Well - you can believe that Jesus did not have any fear - the OP is about whether he had free will anyway. The story reads as if fear was involved, but if it suits your idealism to see him as facing this event fearlessly, that is your prerogative.

It' not about what I think, but what the Bible says. Grief is not fear. It does not say he was afraid. Perhaps you and I would be afraid, but would Jesus be afraid? We need to be careful about putting our human experience on a being that was there when mankind was created. One that has seen death and not only has seen people resurrected but understand how it works. Why would a being that understands these things be afraid of death? My idealism means nothing compared to a person that knows as much as Jesus does.

[brianbbs67]

Timothy and William. I think you 2 are closer than you think in thought. Here is why. I would be greived and afraid of scourging and crucifixion. Christ assumed our form and the inherent weaknesses but over came thru devotion to the father. He cried blood, did he not?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 59 by 2timothy316]

2timothy316:
Jesus was an outstanding Son to his Father.

What other Sons and Daughters did Father have, please?
Regards

No one I know , knows. But , we live by the breath of God. Once he takes it back, we die. And then their is the OT. "ye are gods, but will die like men on this earth" (I know partial paraphrase)

[2timothy316]

Timothy and William. I think you 2 are closer than you think in thought. Here is why. I would be greived and afraid of scourging and crucifixion. Christ assumed our form and the inherent weaknesses but over came thru devotion to the father. He cried blood, did he not?

I'm quite sure Jesus was not looking forward to the pain he was about to endure. Indeed he was human and had a nervous system just like us. In fact Jesus was there when that central nervous system was created. He had no doubt watched horrible things happen to past prophets and knew that he was going to have to endure the same.

However, was he so fearful that he asked his Father if he could avoid all of it? Did the mighty Jesus get cold feet at the end? Who would want us to think that he turned into a coward at the end?

It's all too easy to project our weaknesses on the Christ. Yet no where do we read in the Bible that Jesus was ever too scared to do his Father's will. Grieved yes, but not for the reason of our human weaknesses. He knew of his own resurrection. He knew he'd be a spiritual creature again. He knew the pain was going to be temporary. So the only thing that makes any sense as to why he was grieved were the charges against him. Jesus cares for a person's name or reputation. He even cared for what happened to Moses' body after he was dead. Perhaps fearful of what Satan had planed for the body of Moses. (Jude 9 compare Deut 34:5, 6)

The Bible says eternal life comes from getting to know the only True God and His Son Jesus. From what I find in the Bible, all the evidence points to that Jesus was not afraid to die to remove all the sin off mankind. Because he was a super kind and gentle person, he would have no problems dying for mankind of who he was 'especially fond of'. Prov. 8:31. We should all imitate that and not the cowardice that has been suggested.

All of this can be answered by asking ourselves two questions: Would I give my life to save the lives of my entire family? When the time came would I try to bail out on it and let my family die?

The answers I am quite sure everyone would give would be yes and no way. We are not as weak as we think when it comes to the people we love. Humans have even done selfless acts, put their lives at risk, even died to save complete strangers, yet Jesus is less than that type of person? I think not!

[EBA]

Hello William

Jesus appeared to have the power of choice and it appears to be limited to his situation.

Agreed. This holds true for all of us.

I am reminded of the part of the story before he was to be arrested and eventually executed. "Take this cup from me" He was fearful of what he had been asked to - and had agreed to - do. (this, from memory [paraphrased?] not quoted from scripture).

Well, for the record, I do agree he was fearful just as any MAN would be.

"but not my WILL be done but your (The Father GODs) WILL be done" he chose to forgo his own will in favor of trusting his GODs will.

What you’re assuming here is that Jesus has the power to thwart his Father’s will and that is just not so.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10)

So the story presented definitely shows that Jesus had free will, as far as I can see.

No, it shows us that God is in control and scripture after scripture verifies this.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa 46:10)

Our will is no match for God's will.

[EBA]

Hi william, you stated:

(this, from memory [paraphrased?] not quoted from scripture).

So it’s difficult for me to see how you can make this statement:

So the story presented definitely shows that Jesus had free will, as far as I can see.

Rather than rely on memory let's take a look at the story:

Matthew-

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy (distressed).
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless NOT AS I WILL, but as thou wilt. (Mat 26:37-39)

And what is Jesus’ will? “let this cup pass from me� is his will.

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. (Mat 26:42)

44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Mark-

And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed (utterly astonished; afright), and to be very heavy;
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless NOT WHAT I WILL, but what thou wilt. (Mark 14:33-36

Again, what is Jesus’ will? “take away this cup from me�

And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.(Mark 14:39)

Luke-

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless NOT MY WILL, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Free Will?
44 And being in an agony (anguish) he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22:41-44)

Jesus knew, even though his will was to “remove this cup from me� his Father’s will WOULD BE DONE.

Jesus knew prophecy and was well aware that it is all about Salvation and how it was to be achieved, nevertheless at that point in time, Jesus had the heart of a man.

God bless.

[2timothy316]

Hi william, you stated:

(this, from memory [paraphrased?] not quoted from scripture).

So it’s difficult for me to see how you can make this statement:

So the story presented definitely shows that Jesus had free will, as far as I can see.

Rather than rely on memory let's take a look at the story:

Matthew-

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy (distressed).
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless NOT AS I WILL, but as thou wilt. (Mat 26:37-39)

And what is Jesus’ will? “let this cup pass from me� is his will.

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. (Mat 26:42)

44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Mark-

And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed (utterly astonished; afright), and to be very heavy;
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless NOT WHAT I WILL, but what thou wilt. (Mark 14:33-36

Again, what is Jesus’ will? “take away this cup from me�

And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.(Mark 14:39)

Luke-

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless NOT MY WILL, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. Free Will?
44 And being in an agony (anguish) he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Luke 22:41-44)

Jesus knew, even though his will was to “remove this cup from me� his Father’s will WOULD BE DONE.

Jesus knew prophecy and was well aware that it is all about Salvation and how it was to be achieved, nevertheless at that point in time, Jesus had the heart of a man.

God bless.

The scriptures you have shown here do not mean Jesus didn't have a choice though. Choosing to do his Father's will didn't mean that Jesus was a robot running on a program.

When Peter chopped off an ear of one of the guards Jesus said to Peter that he should return his sword to it's place and added, "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?" Mat 26:53.

Jesus at anytime had freedom to change whatever he wanted. He even had the choice not to follow his Father. Satan tempted Jesus to do an act of worship to him. Satan is not so stupid as to tempt a person that can't choose. To tempt someone that doesn't have freedom of choice would be like trying to tempt a stop sign to say 'go'.

Jesus knew, even though his will was to “remove this cup from me� his Father’s will WOULD BE DONE.

This statement is true. However, Jehovah doesn't have to take away freedom of choice from Jesus to accomplish His will. In the book of Esther, Mordecai told Esther if she didn't speak to her husband the king to plea for the lives of her people that, "relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source..." (Esther 4:14). If Jesus chose not to die for mankind then most certainly "relief and deliverance" would have come from another source. Indeed Jehovah's will must be done yet not at the expense of a person's freedom of choice and the Bible is full of examples of putting the right person in the right place even if the first person doesn't follow His will. Saul, the first king of Israel is a good example. He was replaced by David because Saul failed at following God's will.

[JP Cusick]

Jesus was an outstanding Son to his Father.

What other Sons and Daughters did Father have, please?

I believe the correct answer is that all of humanity are sons and daughters of God.

Jesus is said to be the firstborn from the dead, and after that comes the 2nd then 100th then 5 billion born from the dead in the resurrection.

Colossians 1:18 And he is ... the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Later Christianity got it backward that Christ was firstborn to life as a baby, but the real meaning of "firstborn" was the first resurrection after death.

[William]

[Replying to post 66 by EBA]

Hello William

Heaveno EBA

What you’re assuming here is that Jesus has the power to thwart his Father’s will and that is just not so.

You are misrepresenting me in regard to what you are claiming I am assuming. Please refrain from doing that.

No, it shows us that God is in control and scripture after scripture verifies this.

Be that as it may, how is that the subject of the thread?

Our will is no match for God's will.

You seem to be implying that we have no free will. The question asked is whether Jesus had free will. Different subject, as far as I can tell.

[Replying to post 67 by EBA]

Your post doesn't really show in that part of the story that Jesus had no free will.
Indeed, I used one example of the overall story, but there are of course many other examples which show Jesus as a person using free will. I cannot myself think of any which show him not using free will.

Even if someone were to argue that Jesus was GOD, (which many believe he was) then Jesus still had free will.

One simply cannot have free will and be a free-thinking individual unit of consciousness, all wrapped up in a body.

Not to say that the free will is without its limitations, but as long as there is choice...