A comparison between "faith" and reason

[polonius]

Wikipedia presents the simplest comparison between reason and faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality

“Faith and rationality are two ideologies that exist in varying degrees of conflict or compatibility.

Rationality is based on reason or facts. Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority.

The word faith sometimes refers to a belief that is held with lack of reason or evidence, a belief that is held in spite of or against reason or evidence, or it can refer to belief based upon a degree of evidential warrant.�

Broadly speaking, there are two categories of views regarding the relationship between faith and rationality:

1. Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma, tradition or religious teaching.

2. Fideism holds that faith is necessary and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.�


Opinions?

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Like the wind faith is something we don't need to think about. Thinking about it is just an abstraction. The wind is real, it is happening to us. No thought about it is necessary. We know when the wind is blowing not because we see a flag waving in it we feel it. Thinking about it is just a mental exercise. The wind is happening, feel the breeze.

RESPONSE: No. The wind, a physical event, is experienced objectively. It exists. "Faith" is not objective unless it is founded on an objective reality.

(Wind is a poor example to use since it may just be hot air )

Yet, many are prepared to kill and/or die for their faith. That seems pretty objective, to me.

Best wishes, 2RM

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Like the wind faith is something we don't need to think about. Thinking about it is just an abstraction. The wind is real, it is happening to us. No thought about it is necessary. We know when the wind is blowing not because we see a flag waving in it we feel it. Thinking about it is just a mental exercise. The wind is happening, feel the breeze.

RESPONSE: No. The wind, a physical event, is experienced objectively. It exists. "Faith" is not objective unless it is founded on an objective reality.

(Wind is a poor example to use since it may just be hot air )

Exactly the answer I'd expect from those that doesn't understand what faith is. Faith, real faith too is experienced objectively. So many have been taught their whole life the wrong expectation of what faith is.

Faith with evidence fries so many brains. So many just can't except that. So much so that any evidence is very quickly dismissed. Reminds me of those fallen to what 2 Timothy 3:13 spoke of.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 10 by polonius.advice]

Faith is not something that can be rationally described one either has it or not. God is beyond reason. Using words to describe God is like trying to see your own eyeball. Faith is the only way to find God in the great game of hide and seek God is playing with humanity.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 10 by polonius.advice]

Faith is not something that can be rationally described one either has it or not. God is beyond reason. Using words to describe God is like trying to see your own eyeball. Faith is the only way to find God in the great game of hide and seek God is playing with humanity.

RESPONSE:

Faith is not something that can be rationally described

Question: So are you saying faith is not rational (so cannot be rationally described)?

[polonius]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Like the wind faith is something we don't need to think about. Thinking about it is just an abstraction. The wind is real, it is happening to us. No thought about it is necessary. We know when the wind is blowing not because we see a flag waving in it we feel it. Thinking about it is just a mental exercise. The wind is happening, feel the breeze.

RESPONSE: No. The wind, a physical event, is experienced objectively. It exists. "Faith" is not objective unless it is founded on an objective reality.

(Wind is a poor example to use since it may just be hot air )

Exactly the answer I'd expect from those that doesn't understand what faith is. Faith, real faith too is experienced objectively. So many have been taught their whole life the wrong expectation of what faith is.

Faith with evidence fries so many brains. So many just can't except that. So much so that any evidence is very quickly dismissed. Reminds me of those fallen to what 2 Timothy 3:13 spoke of.

RESPONSE: If it is "Faith with evidence" is not faith. If there is evidence, it is no long faith (without evidence).

Do you understand the difference between fact and faith?

[McCulloch]

Faith is not something that can be rationally described one either has it or not. God is beyond reason. Using words to describe God is like trying to see your own eyeball. Faith is the only way to find God in the great game of hide and seek God is playing with humanity.

If faith in God is beyond reason, then how can you know that your faith is the right faith?

If God is so ineffable, how can you say anything about God, such as God loves or God is good?

If faith is literally nonsense (not sensible not rational not reasonable) then why would anyone consider faith to be a virtue?

Is it my fault that I have not faith? Is it just that I be condemned for lack of faith when faith itself is a gift from God? If God wants all humanity to be saved, why would he withhold the gift of faith from so many of us?

[ttruscott]

Faith is not something that can be rationally described one either has it or not. God is beyond reason. Using words to describe God is like trying to see your own eyeball. Faith is the only way to find God in the great game of hide and seek God is playing with humanity.

If faith in God is beyond reason, then how can you know that your faith is the right faith?

There is no right or wrong in faith, just hope. Wanna hope in the flying spaghetti monster, fine! and good luck with that.

Faith is the substance of an unproven hope...the hope that is strong enough that proof can be held in abeyance until it is proved.

If God is so ineffable, how can you say anything about God, such as God loves or God is good?

Only by HIS self revelation, I think.

If faith is literally nonsense (not sensible not rational not reasonable) then why would anyone consider faith to be a virtue?

Hope has NO place in our lives? Faith is hope in an unproven result...every time you save money for a child's education, you are putting your faith in a number of unprovens: that she will live that long, be bright enough and you will save enough in the long run to be helpful, etc.

You buy insurance on faith. You get in your car and drive places on faith, mild and as unspoken as it is...but try driving through a country at war and faith, the need for hope that you will make it to keep you going, becomes to the forefront.

Well the Christian also believes they are at war in the spirit in their character. This war will kill them but they have an unproven hope in their better character and in a better afterlife in Christ than without Him.

Is it my fault that I have not faith?

But you do have faith. You do not see the war nor want the afterlife enough to hold proof in abeyance so you put your faith elsewhere that there's probably no GOD anyway and certainly no resurrection and heaven...

You do not have proof there is no God and no heaven, but you believe in this unproven point of view - which fits the Christian definition of faith perfectly. Add in the fact that as one or two here have mentioned that if GOD IS proved, they will go to hell, then a certain soupçcon of hope you have chosen correctly arises. You do not hope for heaven but you certainly do not hope for hell in your choice.

Is it just that I be condemned for lack of faith when faith itself is a gift from God? If God wants all humanity to be saved, why would he withhold the gift of faith from so many of us?

While correct, the full truth is in the details.
I personally see the gift of faith as a return of our first self chosen faith which was destroyed when we afterward chose to rebel against HIM and became evil.

Choosing to be evil ends our free will as evil overwhelms our minds and desires so that our nature becomes sinful. Sin becomes our focus, not the truth and the spiritual truth we know is repressed so we may blithely sin. Our first choice of faith in HIM is part of that truth we forget. This is how I read Romans chapter 1. So the gift is a return of our first faith to us so that we can start to follow HIM into redemption. Part of this process entails the return of our free will as sin loses its hold on our desires.

So, if someone never put their faith in HIM, HE obviously cannot return them to that faith. This is more acceptable to me than to believe HE chooses some and not others for no reason.

So:
- some by their free will put their faith in YHWH's claims to be our Deity and HIS promises of heaven and salvation from any and all sin, and became HIS elect,

- some by their free will rejected HIS claims to be our GOD by putting their faith in HIM being a false god and the first liar, rejecting HIS promises of heaven and salvation as the manipulations of a false god by which choice they became the non-elect reprobate, never able to fulfill HIS purpose of HIS creation of them and under the absolute necessity of being completely separated from HIS heavenly reality because a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

- some of the elect rebelled against the call for the judgement of the reprobate thinking that a loving GOD should give them more time to repent, that hell was too harsh for their faith belief that HE was the first and therefore the most evil person, mere unbelief as it were, etc etc, and so they became sinful themselves, needing the promise of salvation and election to heaven to be fulfilled in themselves by redemption and sanctification as found in HIS Son, the Christ.

I find this is clearly taught in the parable of the good but sinful seed (not the sower!) in Matt 13:24-29 with the explanation without any symbolism or metaphor in Matt 13:36-43 for those interested in such things. Most every element of my supposition is mentioned and supported by this didactic story.

The good seed can be returned to their first faith but since the tares have never put their faith in HIM HE can't return them to it, to a faith they never have had. Also, since they chose their fate by their free will HE must honour their choice or they do not have a free will at all if it results in HIS interference of that choice.

Another consideration is that HE wanted to fill heaven with those who wanted to be there, only those who accepted HIM and HIS offer of a loving marriage with HIM. HE did not want to force anyone to marry HIM who was not inclined to do so by their own desires which might be the case if HE proved HIS divinity to us before we chose. By letting us choose by faith upon an unproven hope, HE found all those willing to accept HIS claims and promises because that was what they thought the best life looked like while excluding from HIS marriage anyone who was willing to reject HIS heaven and promises in the belief HE was a false god and a liar (HIS righteousness was a lie and their morality was far superior) as their best possible life.

Even if they should change their mind by the proof of HIS deity and the reality of hell, they do not change their mind for a desire to wed HIM in heaven and live their lives by HIS righteousness at all but are forced by the proof of HIS Divinity and their fear of hell to accept HIM which is totally a rape, not a marriage at all.

They knew when they chose to reject HiS claims that if HE was ever proved to be GOD they would be damned but they chose to reject HIM anyway. By rejecting the safe way to rebel against HIM, ie, by becoming an elect first as the sinful elect chose to do, proved their incredible commitment to be sent to hell rather than ever having to marry HIM!

Wanting the whole world to be saved was HIS wish which HE could not fulfill having given us the right to fulfill it or not by our free will. Neither does HE withhold the gift of returning them to faith from any sinner who has ever had any faith in HIM at all:

• Those who put some faith in HIM even if they later scorned that faith will be brought back to that faith.

• Only those who cannot be saved by putting themselves outside of any salvation, will not be saved.

Those who have never put their faith in HIM as a GODly saviour can never be brought back to that faith they never had; they can only be forced to live in accordance with the reality they have rejected and hate...which is not the basis for a true loving marriage in heaven.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Like the wind faith is something we don't need to think about. Thinking about it is just an abstraction. The wind is real, it is happening to us. No thought about it is necessary. We know when the wind is blowing not because we see a flag waving in it we feel it. Thinking about it is just a mental exercise. The wind is happening, feel the breeze.

RESPONSE: No. The wind, a physical event, is experienced objectively. It exists. "Faith" is not objective unless it is founded on an objective reality.

(Wind is a poor example to use since it may just be hot air )

Exactly the answer I'd expect from those that doesn't understand what faith is. Faith, real faith too is experienced objectively. So many have been taught their whole life the wrong expectation of what faith is.

Faith with evidence fries so many brains. So many just can't except that. So much so that any evidence is very quickly dismissed. Reminds me of those fallen to what 2 Timothy 3:13 spoke of.

RESPONSE: If it is "Faith with evidence" is not faith. If there is evidence, it is no long faith (without evidence).

Do you understand the difference between fact and faith?

Yes I do. Do you understand there is the real faith that the Bible speaks of and the 'faith' (which is really credulity) that you and most of the world was taught? Do you understand that I am not viewing the word faith as something without evidence? Do you understand that there is another word for rushing to believe something without evidence? That word is credulity.

“Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.� (Heb 11:1)

This article will explain what faith means from the standpoint of the Bible.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102000168

From the article:
"The Bible says: “Faith is being sure of the things we hope for.� (Hebrews 11:1, The New Testament in the Language of Today) Therefore, faith is founded on accurate knowledge, facts on which right decisions can be based. It requires not only belief but a reason for believing.

To illustrate: Perhaps you have a friend of whom you can say: “I trust that man. I can count on him to keep his word. I know that if I have a problem, he will come to my aid.� It is not likely that you would say that about someone you have known for only a day or two, is it? He would have to be someone who had proved his dependability time and again. It should be the same with religious faith, which should produce hope and conviction based on solid, dependable evidence."

Now do you understand what type of faith we really should be building? Just believing something without some sort of evidence is not faith. There is no 'building' faith if the building process is one step, simply believing something is just one step. Building real faith requires investigation, research and application. Faith is not just simply saying 'I believe' or 'I am sure of....".

[dio9]

[Replying to post 14 by polonius.advice]

yes faith is not rational, it just is , reason is nothing but thought that gets in the way, more than reason faith comes through silent contemplation.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 16 by McCulloch]

faith is something to practice if you choose .