C. S. Lewis -- the heretic.

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C. S. Lewis -- the heretic.

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

In C.S. Lewis -The Heretic! Mary Van Nattan makes the following claims about Lewis:
  1. Lewis believed in the power and use of spells
  2. Lewis Says sincere unbelievers may go to Heaven
  3. We're saved by works according to Lewis
  4. Said descriptions of heaven found in the Bible are all symbolism
  5. To be born again is still in the future; it is a continuing process not yet completed
  6. Mysticism is a means by which one can leave "this world" before death
  7. Says there is a purgatory which we must suffer after death
  8. There is no literal hell. It is a state of mind.
  9. Man evolved from animals. Theistic evolution.
  10. The Bible contains myths.
  11. Lewis Accepted that the Genesis account came from pagan myths
  12. Job is "unhistorical.
  13. There is error in the Bible
  14. To be truly human you must participate in the Tao
  15. Man does not necessarily have dominion over God's creation
  16. Apollo is probably a lower species of Christ, and could probably be prayed to as such

She draws support from Bob Smietana of Christianity Today.
Clive Staples Lewis [...] shared basic Christian beliefs with evangelicals, he didn't subscribe to biblical inerrancy or penal substitution. He believed in purgatory and baptismal regeneration.
C.S. Lewis exposed wrote:That is the heresy of universalism, and many hold to this false doctrine, believing that God will somehow receive unbelievers and followers of false religions into Heaven even though they do not know Jesus Christ in this life.

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Question for debate: was C.S. Lewis a christian apologist? Or was he a heretic?
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Post #2

Post by 1John2_26 »

Question for debate: was C.S. Lewis a Christian apologist? Or was he a heretic?
He was a Christian. He was an apologist. He was not a fundamentalist close-minded bigot, and he was not a liberal-lemming advertsing and selling licentious chaos and apathy so inherent in progressive outcomes.

He was a great thinker that freely used his mind.

As a supporter of Lewis' works, I advise everyone to read Mere Christianity. Of course that would mean you will need to be able to think freely, as opposed to being a "freethinker."

McCulloch, as this is my last day here for a while, I thank you for freeing me of the hateful labels my adversaries have without cuase, pinned on me.

I have been greatly influenced by C. S. Lewis. I advise anyone to walk along his path for as long as they want.

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Post #3

Post by micatala »

Looking over the Van Natten material, I have to say I quickly came to the impression that she or they are a bit off the deep end.

I would have to allow that part of my response stems from having little patience with those who are convinced that everything Roman Catholic is from Satan. Those who claim this, I believe, are profoundly misguided and lacking in good judgment and clear thinking.

Here is one example of their lack of clear thinking.

At one point the site discusses Lewis' supposed 'sun-worship'. Much of this seemed to be based on very speculative interpretations of the symbolism Lewis uses in his Narnia books, e.g. the Lion the WItch and the Wardrobe. For example:
Van Nattan wrote:Let's begin by looking at the The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

p.65 "At the name of Aslan, Lucy got the feeling you get when you wake in the morning and realize it's the beginning of spring."
p.74 "Tell us about Aslan...once again that strange feeling - like the first sings of spring had come over them."
p.74 "An old rhyme in these parts...when he bares his teeth winter meets its death and when he shakes his mane we shall have spring again."

The plot here, as those who have read the Chronicles will know, is that the "White Witch" has bound the land of Narnia in a perpetual winter which can only be broken by the coming of Aslan. This makes perfect sense in the context of the solar deity myths. The common story line is that a goddess kills the sun-god on mid-summer's night and thus winter comes. When the sun stays up longer on the mid-winter solstice (commonly celebrated under the disguise of "Christmas" today) he has triumphed and conquered death, thus bringing spring. We find this ritual being observed by the Jews in Ezekiel's day. Ezekiel 8:13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. 14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. This was the summer death of the sun god, Tammuz, that they were weeping for. The remainder of this story will be discussed further along. (Notice the circle of flowers in the illustration above. The imagery is not wasted. The circle is a common symbol of the sun, and a basic symbol of ritual magic. Wreaths are used in witchcraft both to cast spells against people and to bring "good luck.")



This [cordial] presented to Lucy is said to be made from fire-flowers that grow on the mountains of the sun. According to the book by Jobes, fire flowers themselves represent the sun. Here they are said to grow on the mountains of the sun which are associated with Leo, the lion of the zodiac. In fact, the name Lucy itself means "light." It is from the Latin, and relates to "luce," as in Lucifer. Lucy might well be considered an "illuminated one."



p.156 The mice came to chew away the ropes that tied Aslan to the stone table upon which he had been ritually sacrificed by the witch. Lewis strongly emphasizes the sun rising in the "East" (note: capitalization) as the mice chew through the ropes to free him for his resurrection. "...the sky on the East side of the hill was a little less dark than it had been." After they gnawed the ropes through, "The sky in the East was whitish by now."

First of all, the fact that this event occurs at dawn and that Lewis makes so much of the sun rising is significant in that the sunrise is viewed as the sun's resurrection in the myth mentioned above. That is, Lewis is telling the tale of the sun's daily death and resurrection in careful, but hidden (to the uninitiated) detail. To the followers of sun worship, this is all very easy to see.

It looks as if the Van Nattan's came to their conclusion by some leap of imagination, and then find this imagination reinforced by their conspiratorial and imaginative reading of Lewis' works. The seem to ignore the fact that even the Bible uses light and the Sun as a metaphor for God.


As a final comment, certainly the idea that Lewis might believe in theistic evolution would be a red flag for the Van Nattan's. They seem all too eager to discredit him because they seem too attached to the particulars of their own beliefs as the only 'true CHristian' beliefs.

franknhonest

cult figures

Post #4

Post by franknhonest »

People like C.S.Lewis and Billy Graham are cult figures in Evangelicalism. Why, I just cannot imagine. Cannot people think for themselves?

I don't agree with either of them.

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Post #5

Post by kiwimac »

C.S. Lewis was an interesting chap. He was not a close minded fundamentalist and he was able to conceive of a God greater than the Evangelicals of his day, a being of compassion and acceptance.

No wonder the fundies hate him so.

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Post #6

Post by Confused »

I would have to allow that part of my response stems from having little patience with those who are convinced that everything Roman Catholic is from Satan. Those who claim this, I believe, are profoundly misguided and lacking in good judgment and clear thinking.


I am sorry, I would have to take major offense at this. While I realize you couldn't give a rats patooshi about how you offend some, keep this in mind, the background of catholism usually speaks for itself. If there is a common thought out there that everything satanic is related to the roman catholic church, its a news flash to me. Since you freely admit that your response stems from this belief, I question your good judgement and clear thinking.

I watched and read "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. I think it represents christianities finest in reality. The sacrificial lion for the freedom of all, the youngest brother being the betrayer. It screams christianity and the fight of good and evil. So is my judgment lacking and my thinking clouded?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
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Re: cult figures

Post #7

Post by Confused »

franknhonest wrote:People like C.S.Lewis and Billy Graham are cult figures in Evangelicalism. Why, I just cannot imagine. Cannot people think for themselves?

I don't agree with either of them.
Is it possible for you to ever state an opinion and back it up. Every post I see from you are accusatory with little to no real logic applied. C.S. Lewis as a cult figure? Remember, he wrote fiction..... To put him in the same sentence as Billy Graham, now that may be heresy.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Re: C. S. Lewis -- the heretic.

Post #8

Post by Confused »

McCulloch wrote:In C.S. Lewis -The Heretic! Mary Van Nattan makes the following claims about Lewis:
  1. Lewis believed in the power and use of spells
  2. Lewis Says sincere unbelievers may go to Heaven
  3. We're saved by works according to Lewis
  4. Said descriptions of heaven found in the Bible are all symbolism
  5. To be born again is still in the future; it is a continuing process not yet completed
  6. Mysticism is a means by which one can leave "this world" before death
  7. Says there is a purgatory which we must suffer after death
  8. There is no literal hell. It is a state of mind.
  9. Man evolved from animals. Theistic evolution.
  10. The Bible contains myths.
  11. Lewis Accepted that the Genesis account came from pagan myths
  12. Job is "unhistorical.
  13. There is error in the Bible
  14. To be truly human you must participate in the Tao
  15. Man does not necessarily have dominion over God's creation
  16. Apollo is probably a lower species of Christ, and could probably be prayed to as such

She draws support from Bob Smietana of Christianity Today.
Clive Staples Lewis [...] shared basic Christian beliefs with evangelicals, he didn't subscribe to biblical inerrancy or penal substitution. He believed in purgatory and baptismal regeneration.
C.S. Lewis exposed wrote:That is the heresy of universalism, and many hold to this false doctrine, believing that God will somehow receive unbelievers and followers of false religions into Heaven even though they do not know Jesus Christ in this life.

More links

Question for debate: was C.S. Lewis a christian apologist? Or was he a heretic?
All cards on the table, I would say his writings and thoughts would likely have had him labeled a heretic even 100 years ago. Today, however, the way churches adapt the bible to fit in with current events and change their perceptions on what passages actually meant, he may be seen as apologist. But I think his undertones actually make a mockery of christianity. So I guess he could easily qualify for all three.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #9

Post by kiwimac »

Confused,

You say :
But I think his undertones actually make a mockery of christianity
Interested to hear your reasoning on this.

Kiwimac

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Post #10

Post by Confused »

kiwimac wrote:Confused,

You say :
But I think his undertones actually make a mockery of christianity
Interested to hear your reasoning on this.

Kiwimac
I don't know that I can put this tactfully, so please don't take offense of this writing. The lion represents christ, he dies to spare the traitor brother so in a sense he sacrifices himself to relieve the sins of the brother. Now first off, bible "blood of the lamb", CS Lewis "blood of the lion". Lion eats lamb (get it). Now the sacrifice of the lion wasn't for all of narnia's sins, it was for the brothers, but the sacrifice allowed the rebirth therby allowing the war to change from bad winning, to good winning. So in a sense, the sacrifice was made in defense of all of narnia, but not all of narnia's sins were forgiven, only the brothers. Then we have the lion being resurrected at the stone table, but we also have the traitor brother being resurrected by the potion his little sister gave him after being stabbed by the witch. This second resurrection kind of diminishes the importance of the first sacrifice doesn't it. Then we have the fact that narnia required the mortals of a different dimension to spark the prophecy of the final battle. Implying the citizens of narnia weren't good enough to fight the battle alone, they needed humans. The final insult, the creature portrayed as the inhabitants of narnia have no resemblance whatsoever to what christianity would consider good. They are similar depictions to portraits of satan and his minions. Half goat, half man/ half eagle/half demon. I am not sure I am getting my point across, let me know if I didn't.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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