Islam v. Islam

[keithprosser3]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Like we're actual racists or something.

A lot of so-called Islamophobes are 'actual racists'. Not all by any means, and I am willing to accept that you are not a racist. But be careful who you team up with because the EDL - for example - are a re-boot of the racists skinheads of the BNP and NF with a new battle-cry, which they usually forget and revert to 'Pakis out' after a few beers.

Yep, seen videos and experienced it in real life. Racism covered by a niqaab of “We’re only against extremist Islam�.

if I had to make a choice between a anti-Islam thug and a radical Islamic one, sorry but that's an easy choice to make.

If you feel that way about the EDL you should not be surprised if ordinary Muslims feel the same about their own extremists. Polarisation is a vicious spiral.

Exactly. And since there ARE plentiful racists out there, if an anti–Islamic war turns up I will be classed as a muslim because of my ethnicity, despite not being one.

[keithprosser3]

Question to PbH - I'm not expecting you to have a magic solution or a silver bullet, but do you see a way people (on both sides) can de-escalate the situation?

[Dantalion]

if I had to make a choice between a anti-Islam thug and a radical Islamic one, sorry but that's an easy choice to make.

If you feel that way about the EDL you should not be surprised if ordinary Muslims feel the same about their own extremists. Polarisation is a vicious spiral.

Are you saying you would pick the radical Islamic group ?

And yeah I would hope ordinary Muslims would pick their own extremists over ours, but that's not the point.

[Dantalion]

Like we're actual racists or something.

A lot of so-called Islamophobes are 'actual racists'. Not all by any means, and I am willing to accept that you are not a racist. But be careful who you team up with because the EDL - for example - are a re-boot of the racists skinheads of the BNP and NF with a new battle-cry, which they usually forget and revert to 'Pakis out' after a few beers.

Yep, seen videos and experienced it in real life. Racism covered by a niqaab of “We’re only against extremist Islam�.

if I had to make a choice between a anti-Islam thug and a radical Islamic one, sorry but that's an easy choice to make.

If you feel that way about the EDL you should not be surprised if ordinary Muslims feel the same about their own extremists. Polarisation is a vicious spiral.

Exactly. And since there ARE plentiful racists out there, if an anti–Islamic war turns up I will be classed as a muslim because of my ethnicity, despite not being one.

IF the number of racists is growing it's only out of reaction to the extreme amounts violence carried out in Islam's name.

[keithprosser3]

Are you saying you would pick the radical Islamic group ?

I would be on the side of the moderates of both sides caught up in a conflict only the extremists of both sides really want. Indeed that is where I am doing right now.

And yeah I would hope ordinary Muslims would pick their own extremists over ours, but that's not the point.

I would hope ordinary Muslims would reject extremism, but given what some people are posting it looks very much that ordinary Non-Muslims are not setting an example in that regard.

[keithprosser3]

Are you saying you would pick the radical Islamic group ?

I would be on the side of the moderates of both sides caught up in a conflict only the extremists of both sides really want. Indeed that is where I am doing right now.

And yeah I would hope ordinary Muslims would pick their own extremists over ours, but that's not the point.

I would hope ordinary Muslims would reject extremism, but given what some people are posting it looks very much that ordinary Non-Muslims are not setting an example in that regard.

[keithprosser3]

Does anyone have any ideas how to avert a disaster?

[Dantalion]

Are you saying you would pick the radical Islamic group ?

I would be on the side of the moderates of both sides caught up in a conflict only the extremists of both sides really want. Indeed that is where I am doing right now.

And yeah I would hope ordinary Muslims would pick their own extremists over ours, but that's not the point.

I would hope ordinary Muslims would reject extremism, but given what some people are posting it looks very much that ordinary Non-Muslims are not setting an example in that regard.

I clearly state 'if I HAD to pick a side' of course the best course of action isn't an extreme or violent one and all efforts should go to avoid open conflict when possible.

Let that sink in a bit before you accuse me of things I'm not remotely supporting.
What do you mean by 'what some people are posting?'
This is precisely what's wrong, you can't dish out any criticism against extreme behavior and ideology of a certain group or else the 'moderate' people will see you as part of the problem.

Let's all just do nothing and smile and let the Muslim population grow to a majority with a Sharia party in the government woohoo.
Because that's EXACTLY what will happen if people like you continue to hold office.
And by 'like you' I mean people thinking it's not too late for us to all get along.
So take that as a compliment if you will lol.

[Dantalion]

Does anyone have any ideas how to avert a disaster?

Yup, barbaric ideologies have no place here.
We should concentrate on equal opportunity education and employment for those willing to embrace our society.
But those who abuse our democratic system and tolerance in order to push for Sharia law (there already are sharia courts in our England, how messed up is that?)
should be forced to leave the country.

[keithprosser3]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7233040.stm

"Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries."

How messed up is that?