Islam v. Islam

[keithprosser3]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

[East of Eden]

As I've said before here, the 'moderate' elements that exist in certain Muslim societies are not necessarily outgrowths of any accepted strains of Islam, but in fact represent a relaxation of Islamic principles. Cultural differences, in other words, depend on just how Islamic the societies in question are.

I also disagree with you that they are not targeting the West, Islam has been at war with 'infidels' since 611 AD, save for the recent now ending few hundred year interlude of peace that was due to Western technological superiority. What was the US provocation that caused the Barbary Pirates to attack us hundreds of years ago?

[Choir Loft]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

A major mistake made by the writer of this post is that there is any such thing as moderate Islam. That's ok, though. Wiser men in American leadership assume the same fiction either deliberately or from fear.

"There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it."
- Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister of Turkey (since March 14, 2003)

I do like the reference to 'proxy war', however. There's plenty of evidence to support this as an explanation of what's happening in the middle east today. A little history lesson may be in order.

In 1979 the communist Sandinistas assumed power in the Central American nation of Nicaragua. Shortly thereafter the Central Intelligence Agency recruited, trained and supplied a group of capitalist guerrillas whose mission it was to overthrow the Sandinista government. They were called the Contras and were mostly just a bunch of murderous thugs.

The United States congress became aware that the Contras were out of control and that they were increasingly unpopular in Nicaragua because of their policy of murder, extortion, destruction and general mayhem. The result was legislation forbidding the intelligence community from supporting the Contras. But it didn't end there.

The CIA needed a source of weapons and supply and found it in a relationship with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The Saudis in turn were able to launder money and provide arms to the Contras through Iran. The whole thing came to light and an investigation was instituted by congress. Nothing much came of it even though President Ronald Reagan was regularly briefed on Contra activity (I personally spoke to a Secret Service agent who was in the room when these briefings were held.). The whole thing was covered up with lies and no one in importance was punished.

The end result, of course, was a permanent relationship between the US intelligence community and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

As a result, the people of the United States have become involved in a very serious series of costly wars in the middle east, the ultimate goal of which is to further Sunni religious goals. The war in Syria is only the most current and the Syrian rebels - actually al-qaeda soldiers - are organized and modeled after the Contras of the 1980's and are supported directly and indirectly by the United States and our western allies (France & UK).

At present the United States is involved in more than twenty proxy or shadow wars throughout the region.

And there is absolutely nothing the people of America can do about it.

The subversion of our ability to determine the policies of our own government is treasonous and extreme. The fact that we can't do anything about it is a measure of the grip of tyranny upon us even as we read and write these posts to one another.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[DanieltheDragon]

So aside from the conspiracy theories from the choir loft.

here are some actual facts

http://www.start.umd.edu/datarivers/vis/GtdExplorer.swf

is a great source to discern information from. taking out European and south American targets leaves a bunch of middle eastern countries at the top

Iraq
India
Pakistan
Turkey
Afghanistan

Iraq nearly triples the rate of incidence of the united states

whats more telling is the attacks come from other Islamic factions

also when asked for motives in attacking US targets it is always a result of our intervention between their issues. There cannot be peace in the middle east because neither side wants it. Our best course of action is to just stay out and let them kill each other until one side wins there will always be conflict

not to discount what choirloft said as he does bring some valid points to the table such as our involvement with the Saudis

[marketandchurch]

So aside from the conspiracy theories from the choir loft.

here are some actual facts

http://www.start.umd.edu/datarivers/vis/GtdExplorer.swf

is a great source to discern information from. taking out European and south American targets leaves a bunch of middle eastern countries at the top

Iraq
India
Pakistan
Turkey
Afghanistan

Iraq nearly triples the rate of incidence of the united states

whats more telling is the attacks come from other Islamic factions

also when asked for motives in attacking US targets it is always a result of our intervention between their issues. There cannot be peace in the middle east because neither side wants it. Our best course of action is to just stay out and let them kill each other until one side wins there will always be conflict

not to discount what choirloft said as he does bring some valid points to the table such as our involvement with the Saudis

So then we should just time our death blow to which ever side wins the fighting? The youth in Egypt, in Tunisia, in Libya, in Jordan, in Iran, and in Turkey are largely secular. They are freedom loving, peaceful secular Muslims.



These are the people I want us to go to war for, and to protect. The loss of life is not worth our staying on the sidelines. Islam as a political, cultural, and religious force has failed, and the proof is in the youth rejection of it. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... revolution

[DanieltheDragon]

As secular as it might be it is their battle Egypt is doing just fine without our intervention. If we step in to help it will give more reasons for the people to follow the extremists. Are there certain times when it might be necessary sure I wont rule that out. You have to be careful though because more often than not you will do more harm than good i.e. the Taliban

Christianity went through this during the reformation now it is Islams turn you cant pull them out of the darkness they have to do it on their own

[marketandchurch]

As secular as it might be it is their battle Egypt is doing just fine without our intervention. If we step in to help it will give more reasons for the people to follow the extremists. Are there certain times when it might be necessary sure I wont rule that out. You have to be careful though because more often than not you will do more harm than good i.e. the Taliban

Christianity went through this during the reformation now it is Islams turn you cant pull them out of the darkness they have to do it on their own

It is not doing just fine, if the coptic Christians are being slaughtered o mass, by the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm not advocating intervention in Egypt, though I am advocating intervention in Syria. Lebanon is on the verge of an internal civl war, Israel is prepping to attack both Iran and Hezbollah, the situation in Egypt is severely deteriorating with the Muslim Brotherhood not only being not compliant, but waging an all out war on the Coptic's, Libya and Tunisia teetering on the verge of collapse, Iraq barely getting by a weekend without a suicide bomber or ethnic cleansing, and Turkey in pursuit of a full-scale shut down of the opposition press, as well as

This isn't a reformation. This is a war to change the orientation of Islam into a violent fascist movement, and wage war on the world until sharia reigns supreme. 9/11 and all the attacks on embassies, and wars to torture, maim, and kill infidels existed well before Afghanistan. America only focuses the mind, which is fine, we can handle it. What we can't handle, is doing these operations alone, wherein we bare the load, for what is essentially a security threat

You don't think a toxic middle east that collapses into turmoil won't affect American interests? The continent of Europe is next door, and instability can spread like wildfire throughout Africa, as more extremists topple governments to spread sharia.

[DanieltheDragon]

Syria is a bad example to use. As the revolting side is a complicated mass of revolutionaries that are not exactly secular some including support from terrorist entities and the Muslim brotherhood real danger of creating another Taliban here. its not as simple as you make it out to be just because you think they want us to go to war for does not mean that it will help stability in the region. As you are picking between two extremes of Islam both of which are not exactly friendly to the US. Its like trying to break up a fight between two dogs you are going to get bit. Sometimes you just have to let them sort it out.

As far as Egypt goes the people have stepped up the muslim brother hood is becoming marginalized and exposed for what they are they never needed our help. Egypt is a perfect example of the hardships involved in these cases but the necessity for us to stay out.

[East of Eden]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

A major mistake made by the writer of this post is that there is any such thing as moderate Islam. That's ok, though. Wiser men in American leadership assume the same fiction either deliberately or from fear.

"There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it."
- Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister of Turkey (since March 14, 2003)

Exactly. Islam = Sharia Law, a code that is gender apartheid and that is riddled with gross human rights violations.

[keithprosser3]

It may be the case that there is no such thing as 'moderate Islam', but there are such people as moderate Muslims. Not every Muslim is a fanatic just as not every Christian is a fundamentalist. I am not an expert in Islamic theology, but my late wife was Muslim and I spent a lot the last 12 years time with her family and friends and their attitude to Islam was pretty loose.

You might say that such people are not 'real Muslims', but the point is that most people who are nominally Muslim are not real Muslims! The majority of muslims care a lot more about their family, their job and football than they do about Islamic dogma. The chances are I would have a lot more in common with a Muslim chosen at random than I have in common with East of Eden.