To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.
The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.
I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.
The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.
Islam v. Islam
Moderator: Moderators
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East of Eden
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Post #81
More accurately described as political/religious conflict, as radical Islam is as much an expansionary fascist politcal system as a religion.keithprosser3 wrote: I will say nothing about the EDL - the video says it for me.
However, nearly all Muslims can read Arabic to some extent in order to read the Koran. It is almost inconceivable that a genuine site would avoid Arabic completely, if only the Shahada.
Re Lord Tebbitt, he said what he said because he didn't want his sort of politics (essentially old-fashioned Toryism) associated with the violent excesses of the EDL.
He has always been a bit odd, describing openly neo-Nazi groups like the BNP as left-wing and so on.
I have no admiration for Islam. However it is very easy for things to get blurred so the target is not the faults of Islam but Moslems as individuals and as a communties. The distinction between disliking aspects of Islamic dogma and hatinf Muslims is lost on typical members of the EDL who just want to beat up 'Pakis' (their term, not mine).
The fact that the EDL can be described as 'Patriots' means the issue has gone beyond arguing over dogma and has entered the realm of nationalism and ethnic conflict.
Where do the EDL say they want to do those things to Muslims? And exactly what do you want to do about the problem, nothing?I disapprove of many things about Islam. But I choose not to show my disapproval by frothing at the mouth and calling for Muslims to be deported or their properties and Mosques burned down and the symbols of their culture suppressed. That does not make me less of a patriot than the thugs of the EDL. If it does, I am happy not to be a patriot.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE
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keithprosser3
Post #82
Officially they don't say such things because if they did they would be closed down, but when I lived in Essex the pubs were full of EDL members and supporters and in private they are less inhibited. They are positively scary up close! I had been married to an African Moslem (I am now widowered), but I kept that to myself!
The EDL - and a lot of so-called Islamophobes - are in fact not concerned with Islam or its defects. They are simply racists but they use the faults of Islam (or a stereotyped caricature of Islam) as a mask. It allows them to claim that they are not racists because they are against a religion not a race, but its a very thin veneer.
If your problem is with Islamic dogma (which really only affects Moslems) then the EDL thugs are not your buddies.
The problem is that it is the very worst of Islam that gets presented as if that was the norm, reflecting typical or the majority of Moslems. It is not. Most Muslims are not waiting for the signal to go out and kill apostates. Sure that is in their book, but our book says to kill people who work on Sunday, but we don't.
As usual we get the situation where the zealots on both sides are pushing the peaceful majority into seeing each other lot as an enemy. It's easy to be part of the problem of creating and increasing inter-community distrust and hatred. But it's not what I want to do. I've seen what inter-community strife can do and it's not nice. Does that mean I think honour killings are a good thing? Of course not. But I think - or hope - there is a better way to solve the problem then the EDL's 'paki bashing' approach.
The EDL - and a lot of so-called Islamophobes - are in fact not concerned with Islam or its defects. They are simply racists but they use the faults of Islam (or a stereotyped caricature of Islam) as a mask. It allows them to claim that they are not racists because they are against a religion not a race, but its a very thin veneer.
If your problem is with Islamic dogma (which really only affects Moslems) then the EDL thugs are not your buddies.
The problem is that it is the very worst of Islam that gets presented as if that was the norm, reflecting typical or the majority of Moslems. It is not. Most Muslims are not waiting for the signal to go out and kill apostates. Sure that is in their book, but our book says to kill people who work on Sunday, but we don't.
As usual we get the situation where the zealots on both sides are pushing the peaceful majority into seeing each other lot as an enemy. It's easy to be part of the problem of creating and increasing inter-community distrust and hatred. But it's not what I want to do. I've seen what inter-community strife can do and it's not nice. Does that mean I think honour killings are a good thing? Of course not. But I think - or hope - there is a better way to solve the problem then the EDL's 'paki bashing' approach.
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keithprosser3
Post #83
Officially they don't say such things because if they did they would be closed down, but when I lived in Essex the pubs were full of EDL members and supporters and in private they are less inhibited. They are positively scary up close! I had been married to an African Moslem (I am now widowered), but I kept that to myself!
The EDL - and a lot of so-called Islamophobes - are in fact not concerned with Islam or its defects. They are simply racists but they use the faults of Islam (or a stereotyped caricature of Islam) as a mask. It allows them to claim that they are not racists because they are against a religion not a race, but its a very thin veneer.
If your problem is with Islamic dogma (which really only affects Moslems) then the EDL thugs are not your buddies.
The problem is that it is the very worst of Islam that gets presented as if that was the norm, reflecting typical or the majority of Moslems. It is not. Most Muslims are not waiting for the signal to go out and kill apostates. Sure that is in their book, but our book says to kill people who work on Sunday, but we don't.
As usual we get the situation where the zealots on both sides are pushing the peaceful majority into seeing each other lot as an enemy. It's easy to be part of the problem of creating and increasing inter-community distrust and hatred. But it's not what I want to do. I've seen what inter-community strife can do and it's not nice. Does that mean I think honour killings are a good thing? Of course not. But I think - or hope - there is a better way to solve the problem then the EDL's 'paki bashing' approach.
The EDL - and a lot of so-called Islamophobes - are in fact not concerned with Islam or its defects. They are simply racists but they use the faults of Islam (or a stereotyped caricature of Islam) as a mask. It allows them to claim that they are not racists because they are against a religion not a race, but its a very thin veneer.
If your problem is with Islamic dogma (which really only affects Moslems) then the EDL thugs are not your buddies.
The problem is that it is the very worst of Islam that gets presented as if that was the norm, reflecting typical or the majority of Moslems. It is not. Most Muslims are not waiting for the signal to go out and kill apostates. Sure that is in their book, but our book says to kill people who work on Sunday, but we don't.
As usual we get the situation where the zealots on both sides are pushing the peaceful majority into seeing each other lot as an enemy. It's easy to be part of the problem of creating and increasing inter-community distrust and hatred. But it's not what I want to do. I've seen what inter-community strife can do and it's not nice. Does that mean I think honour killings are a good thing? Of course not. But I think - or hope - there is a better way to solve the problem then the EDL's 'paki bashing' approach.
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #84
And therein lies the difficulty and trouble. In addition, when people of that ilk find out (online at least) that I apostatised from Islam, they expect me to join in their attacks!keithprosser3 wrote:The EDL - and a lot of so-called Islamophobes - are in fact not concerned with Islam or its defects. They are simply racists but they use the faults of Islam (or a stereotyped caricature of Islam) as a mask. It allows them to claim that they are not racists because they are against a religion not a race, but its a very thin veneer.
Also, I think you need to stop double–clicking the submit button.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه
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keithprosser3
Post #85
I'm sure its when I use the back button through an old post entry form. I am trying to change my navigation habits and use the back button less. But its not just me oher people are double posting too... it seems to happen more than I have ever seen before on a board before. I'm using chrome now, having changed from firefox. I don't know if that is relevant. Anyway I'm getting it under control.
I assume you are not a full member of the master Aryan race? If not the EDL brass would love to have you as a member to parade as a symbol of their 'non-racism'. But I don't think you'd really get on with the rank and file.And therein lies the difficulty and trouble. In addition, when people of that ilk find out (online at least) that I apostatised from Islam, they expect me to join in their attacks!
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #86
They would never dare speak with me or present me in real life: my skin is far too terroristy a shade of brown for them to want to look at me. Hence why that sort of thing only happens online.
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه
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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Post #90
[Replying to post 87 by keithprosser3]
Haha. I’m in England. That is simply a speedrunning reference (a passion of mine, and completely unrelated to drugs).
Haha. I’m in England. That is simply a speedrunning reference (a passion of mine, and completely unrelated to drugs).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه
