Islam v. Islam

[keithprosser3]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

[nayrbsnilloc]

[Replying to keithprosser3]

Im not blaming any particular religion for terrorism, I blame the mental instability. However, religion combined with mental instability can be very dangerous. The concept that "earthly life" is not important and is only a precursor for the more substantial afterlife is conducive to terrorism. This makes them not only willing to sacrifice their lives, but they may also desire to die. If they die while helping their cause, all the better.

[East of Eden]

[Replying to keithprosser3]

Im not blaming any particular religion for terrorism, I blame the mental instability. However, religion combined with mental instability can be very dangerous. The concept that "earthly life" is not important and is only a precursor for the more substantial afterlife is conducive to terrorism. This makes them not only willing to sacrifice their lives, but they may also desire to die. If they die while helping their cause, all the better.

Maybe this is the reason for Muslim mental instability:

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/201 ... nbreeding/

[East of Eden]

[Replying to post 67 by Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

exactly.
For argument's sake, lets say that 2% of Christians are extremists/terrorists.

They aren't.

Would you blame the religion for being radical and violent? Likely Not.

No, because they would be acting contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus, who harmed nobody.

now imagine that same figure for muslims.
2% of Islam is still 32 million people (out of 1.6 billion)

So don't blame the religion.

I do blame Islam, the Jihadists are doing nothing that wasn't done by the 'prophet', who recently make the cover of Military History Quarterly. Islam has a whole list of 'offenders' who should be killed, and there is no concept of loving your enemies, forgiveness, or the Golden Rule.

I would put the figure of radical Muslims at 10%, or about 160,000,000. Many more than 10% hold views that are completely antithetical to Western ideas of human rights and basic decency.

Here's an article I came across by a Muslim kook arguing that of course apostates should be killed. Can anyone find a similar piece written by a Christian?

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_co ... _be_killed

[keithprosser3]

Interesting that it is website in English without a word of Arabic. One has to ask who it is intended for because the lingua franca of Islam is Arabic. False flag? Quite possibly.
Not to say that there are no Islamic kooks, but there a plenty of people and organisations who advocate and perpetrate violence against Muslims. The EDL won't openly advocate killing Muslims on their website, but they don't fall far short of it in their activities.

[keithprosser3]

Interesting that it is website in English without a word of Arabic. One has to ask who it is intended for because the lingua franca of Islam is Arabic. False flag? Quite possibly.
Not to say that there are no Islamic kooks, but there a plenty of people and organisations who advocate and perpetrate violence against Muslims. The EDL won't openly advocate killing Muslims on their website, but they don't fall far short of it in their activities.

[East of Eden]

Interesting that it is website in English without a word of Arabic. One has to ask who it is intended for because the lingua franca of Islam is Arabic. False flag? Quite possibly.

Nonsense, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic.

Not to say that there are no Islamic kooks, but there a plenty of people and organisations who advocate and perpetrate violence against Muslims. The EDL won't openly advocate killing Muslims on their website, but they don't fall far short of it in their activities.

The EDL is protesting the Islamization of the UK, or at least parts of it. It is defensive in nature, they aren't going overseas to kill Muslims, and Jihadists do to us. I might feel the same way as the EDL if there were Muslim parts of the US that were 'no-go' areas for the police and other 'infidels', and if a Muslim recently beheaded a US soldier in our streets.

Why is it the EDL protests Islamic extremism more than UK Muslims do? What in the EDL mission statement do you find offensive:

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/mission-statement/

This bit seems quite reasonable:

"The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure. Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities.

Whilst we must always protect against the unjust assumption that all Muslims are complicit in or somehow responsible for these crimes, we must not be afraid to speak freely about these issues. This is why the EDL will continue to work to protect the inalienable rights of all people to protest against radical Islam’s encroachment into the lives of non-Muslims.

We also recognise that Muslims themselves are frequently the main victims of some Islamic traditions and practices. The Government should protect the individual human rights of members of British Muslims. It should ensure that they can openly criticise Islamic orthodoxy, challenge Islamic leaders without fear of retribution, receive full equality before the law (including equal rights for Muslim women), and leave Islam if they see fit, without fear of censure."

Keith, you're opposed to honour killings, homophobia, oppression of women, terror, the molestation of children, and anti-Semitism, aren't you?

According to Lord Tebbit, the EDL isn't even a 'far-right' group. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08 ... _hp_ref=tw

I call them patriots.

[10CC]

Interesting that it is website in English without a word of Arabic. One has to ask who it is intended for because the lingua franca of Islam is Arabic. False flag? Quite possibly.

Nonsense, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic.

Not to say that there are no Islamic kooks, but there a plenty of people and organisations who advocate and perpetrate violence against Muslims. The EDL won't openly advocate killing Muslims on their website, but they don't fall far short of it in their activities.

The EDL is protesting the Islamization of the UK, or at least parts of it. It is defensive in nature, they aren't going overseas to kill Muslims, and Jihadists do to us. I might feel the same way as the EDL if there were Muslim parts of the US that were 'no-go' areas for the police and other 'infidels', and if a Muslim recently beheaded a US soldier in our streets.

Why is it the EDL protests Islamic extremism more than UK Muslims do? What in the EDL mission statement do you find offensive:

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/mission-statement/

This bit seems quite reasonable:

"The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure. Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities.

Whilst we must always protect against the unjust assumption that all Muslims are complicit in or somehow responsible for these crimes, we must not be afraid to speak freely about these issues. This is why the EDL will continue to work to protect the inalienable rights of all people to protest against radical Islam’s encroachment into the lives of non-Muslims.

We also recognise that Muslims themselves are frequently the main victims of some Islamic traditions and practices. The Government should protect the individual human rights of members of British Muslims. It should ensure that they can openly criticise Islamic orthodoxy, challenge Islamic leaders without fear of retribution, receive full equality before the law (including equal rights for Muslim women), and leave Islam if they see fit, without fear of censure."

Keith, you're opposed to honour killings, homophobia, oppression of women, terror, the molestation of children, and anti-Semitism, aren't you?

According to Lord Tebbit, the EDL isn't even a 'far-right' group. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08 ... _hp_ref=tw

I call them patriots.

The census of 2011 states that 4.8% of the UK population is muslim.

The "Islamization of the UK" is proceeding at an alarming rate. Woo Hoo

[keithprosser3]

I will say nothing about the EDL - the video says it for me.

However, nearly all Muslims can read Arabic to some extent in order to read the Koran. It is almost inconceivable that a genuine site would avoid Arabic completely, if only the Shahada.

Re Lord Tebbitt, he said what he said because he didn't want his sort of politics (essentially old-fashioned Toryism) associated with the violent excesses of the EDL.
He has always been a bit odd, describing openly neo-Nazi groups like the BNP as left-wing and so on.

I have no admiration for Islam. However it is very easy for things to get blurred so the target is not the faults of Islam but Moslems as individuals and as a communties. The distinction between disliking aspects of Islamic dogma and hatinf Muslims is lost on typical members of the EDL who just want to beat up 'Pakis' (their term, not mine).

The fact that the EDL can be described as 'Patriots' means the issue has gone beyond arguing over dogma and has entered the realm of nationalism and ethnic conflict. I disapprove of many things about Islam. But I choose not to show my disapproval by frothing at the mouth and calling for Muslims to be deported or their properties and Mosques burned down and the symbols of their culture suppressed. That does not make me less of a patriot than the thugs of the EDL. If it does, I am happy not to be a patriot.

[keithprosser3]

I will say nothing about the EDL - the video says it for me.

However, nearly all Muslims can read Arabic to some extent in order to read the Koran. It is almost inconceivable that a genuine site would avoid Arabic completely, if only the Shahada.

Re Lord Tebbitt, he said what he said because he didn't want his sort of politics (essentially old-fashioned Toryism) associated with the violent excesses of the EDL.
He has always been a bit odd, describing openly neo-Nazi groups like the BNP as left-wing and so on.

I have no admiration for Islam. However it is very easy for things to get blurred so the target is not the faults of Islam but Moslems as individuals and as a communties. The distinction between disliking aspects of Islamic dogma and hatinf Muslims is lost on typical members of the EDL who just want to beat up 'Pakis' (their term, not mine).

The fact that the EDL can be described as 'Patriots' means the issue has gone beyond arguing over dogma and has entered the realm of nationalism and ethnic conflict. I disapprove of many things about Islam. But I choose not to show my disapproval by frothing at the mouth and calling for Muslims to be deported or their properties and Mosques burned down and the symbols of their culture suppressed. That does not make me less of a patriot than the thugs of the EDL. If it does, I am happy not to be a patriot.

[East of Eden]

Interesting that it is website in English without a word of Arabic. One has to ask who it is intended for because the lingua franca of Islam is Arabic. False flag? Quite possibly.

Nonsense, most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic.

Not to say that there are no Islamic kooks, but there a plenty of people and organisations who advocate and perpetrate violence against Muslims. The EDL won't openly advocate killing Muslims on their website, but they don't fall far short of it in their activities.

The EDL is protesting the Islamization of the UK, or at least parts of it. It is defensive in nature, they aren't going overseas to kill Muslims, and Jihadists do to us. I might feel the same way as the EDL if there were Muslim parts of the US that were 'no-go' areas for the police and other 'infidels', and if a Muslim recently beheaded a US soldier in our streets.

Why is it the EDL protests Islamic extremism more than UK Muslims do? What in the EDL mission statement do you find offensive:

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/mission-statement/

This bit seems quite reasonable:

"The English Defence League (EDL) is a human rights organisation that was founded in the wake of the shocking actions of a small group of Muslim extremists who, at a homecoming parade in Luton, openly mocked the sacrifices of our service personnel without any fear of censure. Although these actions were certainly those of a minority, we believe that they reflect other forms of religiously-inspired intolerance and barbarity that are thriving amongst certain sections of the Muslim population in Britain: including, but not limited to, the denigration and oppression of women, the molestation of young children, the committing of so-called honour killings, homophobia, anti-Semitism, and continued support for those responsible for terrorist atrocities.

Whilst we must always protect against the unjust assumption that all Muslims are complicit in or somehow responsible for these crimes, we must not be afraid to speak freely about these issues. This is why the EDL will continue to work to protect the inalienable rights of all people to protest against radical Islam’s encroachment into the lives of non-Muslims.

We also recognise that Muslims themselves are frequently the main victims of some Islamic traditions and practices. The Government should protect the individual human rights of members of British Muslims. It should ensure that they can openly criticise Islamic orthodoxy, challenge Islamic leaders without fear of retribution, receive full equality before the law (including equal rights for Muslim women), and leave Islam if they see fit, without fear of censure."

Keith, you're opposed to honour killings, homophobia, oppression of women, terror, the molestation of children, and anti-Semitism, aren't you?

According to Lord Tebbit, the EDL isn't even a 'far-right' group. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08 ... _hp_ref=tw

I call them patriots.

The census of 2011 states that 4.8% of the UK population is muslim.

The "Islamization of the UK" is proceeding at an alarming rate. Woo Hoo

It isn't a joke to people bullied in Muslim areas that are no-go for 'infidels'.

http://patdollard.com/2013/01/no-go-zon ... an-cities/

"In Britain, for example, a Muslim group called Muslims Against the Crusades has launched a campaign to turn twelve British cities – including what it calls "Londonistan" – into independent Islamic states. The so-called Islamic Emirates would function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Islamic Sharia law and operate entirely outside British jurisprudence.

The Islamic Emirates Project names the British cities of Birmingham, Bradford, Derby, Dewsbury, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Luton, Manchester, Sheffield, as well as Waltham Forest in northeast London and Tower Hamlets in East London as territories to be targeted for blanket Sharia rule.

In the Tower Hamlets area of East London (also known as the Islamic Republic of Tower Hamlets), for example, extremist Muslim preachers, called the Tower Hamlets Taliban, regularly issue death threats to women who refuse to wear Islamic veils. Neighborhood streets have been plastered with posters declaring "You are entering a Sharia controlled zone: Islamic rules enforced." And street advertising deemed offensive to Muslims is regularly vandalized or blacked out with spray paint.

In the Bury Park area of Luton, Muslims have been accused of "ethnic cleansing" by harassing non-Muslims to the point that many of them move out of Muslim neighborhoods. In the West Midlands, two Christian preachers have been accused of "hate crimes" for handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham. In Leytonstone in east London, the Muslim extremist Abu Izzadeen heckled the former Home Secretary John Reid by saying: "How dare you come to a Muslim area."


Muhammed is the third most popular boys name in England and Wales.