Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

Post #1

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...



He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.


And feeding and clothing the poor.
Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.
So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem — not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.
As you can see, a truly evil man.
Last edited by The Persnickety Platypus on Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #51

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Al, enough rhetoric. Time for evidence.


I have shown you mine. My statistics prove that the United States is undeniably less equal and democratic than liberal dominated Europe. They have shown that Venezuela is undeniably a fairer and more prosperous country under Hugo Chavez. America's economy has done best under more liberal leadership. Sorry man, those are just the facts. And yet, somehow you still manage to wriggle out of them, alluding once again to your baseless crap about liberal deciet.

Well, I am tired of doing all the work. Show me your stuff. What have you got? Where is this moral and equal America I am told of? Don't get off about all the Mexicans crossing the border. That's like showing how good the Virginia Tech basketball team is by comparing them to the local middle school junior varsity squad. The Mexicans would be in Europe in a heartbeat if they had the travel means.

Properly run socialisms are the best governments. No more of your "history" lessons. Russia, Cuba, and China were never remotely socialist. Sweden is socialist. Norway is socialist. Canada, France, Switzerland, and Germany are all (at least partly) socialist. History is NOT on your side, especially if we consider third world nations.

The "freedom" that you and so many other Americans preach is, ironicly, the attitude that has sunk America. Properly restricted government interference (as in the aformentioned countries) actually better helps ENSURE the very freedoms you preach.

It is sad to see how many people still think that America is the epitamy of free democracies. It is a pity to see so many people deny the primitive plutocracy we have reverted to. It is time to destroy this myth of a free and charitable America. The general population's ignorance and complatancy are stifling the progress we should be making. The sooner you stop trying to come up with excuses for our blatant problems, the sooner we can fix them. That is, unless you enjoy being a pawn of our corporate overlords.

Either support your assertions, or give up. Your call.

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Post #52

Post by 1John2_26 »

Ghettoizing the populace is the song I hear from a socialist.

You cannot wipe away Russia, Cuba, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea, just because you want rich people to pay for the apathetic people to have a free lunch.

Socialism in the European countries you mention is a very new experiment on the stage of history and what has come of it? Euthanasia and "anything goes."

Who do you think are working those brothels in the Netherlands?

And migrants choose Europe only because they cannot get to America.

You redefine words to fit your theory and ideology.

Very USSR.

History has spoken on socialism but the ignorant never learn their lessons from it. America is still the envy of the world. Even Muslims want to live here.

You mistake social programs for familes, as a mandate to take from the honest and give to those that wallow in their self-induced self-centered pity. I am not a rich man and I still do not want honest people that are rich to suffer at the hands of peasants and the peasant-minded, that do not understand business.

Your use of rhetoric shows the good side and never the bad.

How USSR. They had the stats to backup their perfect society as well, until the curtain was pulled back.

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Post #53

Post by Curious »

Jesus Christ!

John, why so full of bitterness?

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Post #54

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Sorry, still not seeing evidence.
Socialism in the European countries you mention is a very new experiment on the stage of history and what has come of it?
More profitable and equal societies? Please refer to the International Statistic's Bureu charts I posted.

Oh, but I forgot, everyone in the ISB is probably just an "evil liberal distorting the facts, as always". Right?
Ghettoizing the populace is the song I hear from a socialist.
You must be talking to some strange breeds of socialists...
You cannot wipe away Russia, Cuba, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, North Korea
And you cannot deny the facts and statistics I have posted. Yet somehow you manage.
Who do you think are working those brothels in the Netherlands?
You know, it might be a good idea to actually research this issue before asserting your preconcieved prejudices and conspiracy theories as fact.

Considering the very low sex statistics in the Netherlands (as compared to the US), I might assume that there are very few brothels. You see, no one needs to resort to giving up ass for money in properly governed socialist societies with reasonable job and payment opportunities.
America is still the envy of the world. Even Muslims want to live here.
I would introduce you to reality, but I am afraid the effort would be wasted.

Are you aware of the foriegn US approval rating? Every Muslim in the known world despises us (yes, even to the point of flying planes into treasured government buildings), Most countries in the UN hate us for obvious reasons (and the ones that didn't at first do now, after seeing what kind of mess we have gotten them into). I would not visit Canada anytime soon- ask any American tourist who has recently visited. What do you think the starving Africans think when they hear about our upstanding citizen's gated estates and brand new BMWs? How about the poor Venezuelans who constantly hear about America plotting to sabotage their new oil wealth, which has allowed them their first glimmer of hope in centuries? How about the people and species who rely on the vital artic ice, a third of which has vanished after thanks to the massive amounts of toxic fumes radiating from the states?

Get off your high horse, and quit gloating. People like you are the prime reason the entire globe (except maybe Japan) completely despises us.
You mistake social programs for familes, as a mandate to take from the honest and give to those that wallow in their self-induced self-centered pity.
just because you want rich people to pay for the apathetic people to have a free lunch.
That's right. Those lazy carefree crackhead starving citizens. If they would just take one second from their seven day 100 hour work weeks toiling in fields and factories for minimum wage, they might actually make something of their life and quit mooching off the welfare provided by honest upstanding upper class citizens milking the unruly system for all it's worth (like good old Tom Delay or Scooter Libby).

If you could just venture out of your perfect little fantasy world into the realm of grim reality once in a while, you might realize that many people simply CANNOT provide for themselves, thanks to the governments fixation on tax cuts for the rich and outright refusal to raise the minimum wage above poverty level. But of course, then that would force you to forsake your precious "God-fearing" Republican cohorts. Lord forbid.
I still do not want honest people that are rich to suffer
OH ME OH MY THOSE POOR PITIFUL RICH PEOPLE!!!

Why, if they keep having to give small fractions of their precious money to people who are starving to death, they may no longer be able to afford that nice luxery suite on their monthly vacation cruise to Cancun!!!

COUNTRY CLUB MEMBERS UNITE!!! WE MUST FIGHT THIS INJUSTICE!!!
that do not understand business.
Yeah, about that, arn't you the guy who asked me why Venezuela can only afford to make the weekly minimum wage $40 a week?

And you are trying to tell me that socialist Europe is a poverty/whore infested rat hole?

And that the United States is still the world's epitome of democracy and economic justice?

Cut me a break.

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Post #55

Post by 1John2_26 »

When a person buys a five-year old car, how much taxes do they pay on the purchse?

Or when a person buys a $90,000 Porche, how much taxes do they pay on that purchase?

And, what if Chavez didn't have the fruit of the big oil industry to fuel his socialist handouts?

BTW, did you see what Pope Benedict said about the poor in a Marxist society? You'd like it.

I liked it because he stresses the need for an activist church.

Without it a socialist country slides into Amersterdam and N. Korea. I like this Pope a lot.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060125/ap_ ... MlJVRPUCUl

Oh, also, Hitler's party was the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Another fine example of why you never can fully trust a "socialist."

Here are some stats for you to look at.

http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/hot_issue/share/
Critics of Bush’s three tax relief plans charge that only the wealthy benefited from the reductions in marginal tax rates. But is this true? And more broadly, do the wealthiest Americans pay their “fair share” of the tax burden?

The evidence shows that all Americans, rich and poor, benefited from President Bush’s tax cuts. The rich saw taxes on their dividends and capital gains reduced (as well as their income taxes), and personal income tax rates were slashed across the board, which encompassed every middle-class taxpayer. Even the poor, who generally do not pay income taxes, were rewarded with a higher Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and child tax credits.

Progressivity and the Tax Burden

Our tax system, however, is highly progressive, meaning that as one’s income rises, a higher proportion of that income is taxed. Thus, those in the highest tax brackets contribute more to the overall tax burden even though there are far more people in lower tax brackets. For example:1

According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.2
Rising Federal Taxes for the Rich

The empirical evidence shows that the wealthiest citizens are also paying an ever-increasing proportion of all taxes collected by the federal government. Data from the Congressional Budget Office show not only that taxes on the wealthy have risen over time but that the 2001 Bush tax cut barely kept their share of the tax burden from rising further:3

In 1984, after the Reagan tax cut had been fully phased in, the bottom quintile (20 percent) of income earners paid an average federal tax rate (individual, payroll, corporate and excise) of 10.2 percent.
The top quintile of earners paid 24.5 percent and the top 1 percent paid 28.2 percent.
In 2001, after the first Bush tax cut had taken effect, those in the bottom quintile paid average federal income taxes of 5.4 percent, about half of what they did 20 years ago.
Those in the top five percent saw a slight decline in their federal tax rate (28.6 percent, down from 29.7 percent).
The top 1 percent, however, saw their overall federal tax burden increase slightly, from 33 to 33.2 percent.
Despite the accusation that it was the very wealthiest who benefited the most from the 2001 tax cut, their federal tax burden stayed level at best and increased at worst. Progressivity in the tax system rose and the wealthy now pay about six times more than the poor.

We can also look at the overall share of federal taxes paid to detect a similar pattern. For example:4

From 1984 to 2001, those in the bottom quintile saw their share of the total tax burden drop from 2.4 percent to 1.1 percent.
Those in the top quintile saw their share rise from 55.6 percent to 65.3 percent.
The top 10 percent increased their share from 39.3 percent to 50 percent; the top 5 percent’s share rose from 28.2 to 38.5 percent; and those in the top 1 percent saw their share skyrocket from 14.7 percent to 22.7 percent.
Overall, the poor paid about half as much of the federal tax burden in 2001 as they did in 1984, while the rich paid about 50 percent more. Even those in the middle class, often said to be hit hardest by increasing taxes, saw their share decline by about a third.

Raising Taxes on the Rich Is Counterproductive

Despite these figures, many critics of the Bush tax cuts still insist that the rich aren’t paying their fair share of taxes, and that marginal tax rates should be increased for those in the highest tax brackets.

Interestingly, though, historical examples show us that when marginal tax rates on the rich are higher than 30 percent, the rich actually pay less of the total tax burden, because they tend to shelter, hide or underreport more of their income to avoid those high rates. Alternately, when taxes are lowered on the rich, their share of the total tax burden climbs. Consider the following evidence from three major tax rate reductions:5

In the 1920s, the top tax rate fell from 73 percent to 25 percent, but the wealthy went from paying 44.2 percent of the tax burden in 1921 to more than 78 percent in 1928.
In the 1960s, after JFK cut the top tax rate from 91 to 70 percent, those making more than $50,000 saw their share of the tax burden rise from 11.6 to 15.1 percent.
In the 1980s, after Reagan’s “supply-side” tax cuts, the top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax burden climb from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.
Conclusion: “A Rising Tide Lifts All Boats”

President Kennedy once said that a rising tide lifts all boats, and he was right. When the economy grows, rich and poor alike benefit from rising wages, incomes, and productivity. Conversely, stagnation hurts all income classes simultaneously. The evidence from the 1960s through today illustrates that lower tax rates correlate with rising incomes for all sections of the population. Even cuts on capital gains and dividends, often though to benefit only rich stockholders, allow for greater investment and more job creation, which ultimately helps lower-income Americans. Though the wealthy pay an enormous share of the overall tax burden, tax cuts on their income would not only bring in more revenue, but would help lower-income Americans become more upwardly mobile.

Bruce Bartlett columns:

http://www.ncpa.org/edo/bb/2004/20040407bb.htm (“Distribution of the Tax Burden,” April 7, 2004)

http://www.ncpa.org/edo/bb/2003/bb071403.html (“The Rich Are Already Paying Their Fair Share,” July 14, 2003)

http://www.ncpa.org/edo/bb/2003/bb061603.html (“Republicans and the Earned Income Tax Credit,” June 16, 2003)

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Post #56

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Wouldn't I be justified as simply revoking that report on grounds of "conservative deciet", as you have done to all of my research?

But I digress, thanks for at least posting something of alalytical weight.

Honestly, that report shocks me, because I have seen nothing so optimistic about Bush's program... well, ever. I simply typed in "Bush Tax Cuts" into Google, and got ABSOLUTELY nothing but negativity, much of it comming from evenminded policy organizations.

"The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities", for one, has a very different take on the matter. Based on their analysis, the tax cuts are contributing to the further decimation of the middle class, and will likely triple the deficit (as I have been saying all along):
http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-04tax-sum.htm

Taking from the poor, giving to the rich. The Detroit News assesses the new tax plan:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/specialrepo ... 284666.htm

"Citizens for Tax Justice" cites the alarming nature of the Bush tax cuts. While the top 1% are "only" recieving 20% of the cuts NOW, by 2010 they will harbor 50% of it. 1% of the nation getting 50% of the tax cuts. Is this the system you are trying to pass off as fair?
http://www.ctj.org/html/gwb0602.htm

The tax cuts further widen the wealth gap:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0523-02.htm
But of course, my 10 year old sister could have told you that.

Lastly, if you can stand an openly liberal viewpoint, here is the best summary of my beliefs:
http://www.counterpunch.org/freeman05302003.html

Bush and congressional Republicans rest the tax cut on their own argument of fairness: It is the prosperous who pay the bulk of income taxes, so they should get most of the tax relief.

Funny, I have a slightly different philosophy: The poor have the least money, so they should get the most tax relief. The starving are the hungriest, they should get the most food.

Before comming in contact with the truly fascinating conservative position, I might have assumed that this would qualify as EVERYONES view on "fairness". Apparently however, their dictionary reads a bit different than mine.

Of course, it is a bit foolish for you and I to be asserting any facts concerning this (as we both barely know any more about taxes than your average Ostrich), but based on the economy's current situation (I assume I don't need to outline that for you again?), it would be a complete aberration of reality to claim that the new tax plan has aided anyone but the wealthy.





Anyway, there's one small issue you have expanded upon. Have any analysis' or reports on socialist Europe or Venezuela? Any evidence that that America is NOT currently a full-fledged plutocracy?
When a person buys a five-year old car, how much taxes do they pay on the purchse?
Too much.
Or when a person buys a $90,000 Porche, how much taxes do they pay on that purchase?
Not enough.
And, what if Chavez didn't have the fruit of the big oil industry to fuel his socialist handouts?
Then he might as well move to Ethiopia and raise chickens.

What if the US did not have the many numerous big industries that drive our economy? Think our free market would work then?

I am afraid I do not see your point here. Every successful social system needs a source of power. Difference with Hugo is, he is actually sharing that power (even with peoples of different countries) instead of directing all the oil to US corporations and handing the profits to the social elite, as was done under the former Venezuelan "free" society.
BTW, did you see what Pope Benedict said about the poor in a Marxist society? You'd like it.
No, I actually had a rather hard time focusing on it. Instead my attention was drawn to the lavish costume Benedict was sporting, particularly the giant gold monstrocity adorning his head. I can't help but wonder how much such an outfit would cost, and how many African villiages the money could support.

Words can scarcely describe my divine hatred of the pomp the Catholic Church (and many Protestant contemporaries, likewise) garnish themselves with. They fill their starving self-centered egos with such embellishments when they should be filling the hungry mouths of our societies more neglected citizens.
I liked it because he stresses the need for an activist church.
Too bad those activist churches are too busy voting Republican to hear the cries of the suffering.
Oh, also, Hitler's party was the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Another fine example of why you never can fully trust a "socialist."
So where do you suggest I pin my trust? Corporate America? Japan (particularly of the WW2 era)? The African capitalist war-lords (too numerous to name)? Venezuelan elitists? The former imperialist regimes of Britan, France, and Belgium?

Name me a corrupt socialist government, and I'll name you a corrupt capitalist one. This argument of yours is going no where.




I really wish you would check out my current affiliation, Socialist Party USA. Check out it's principles and platform. I can't imagine you could dissagree with much of it (or it's intentions, at the very least).

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Post #57

Post by 1John2_26 »

Name me a corrupt socialist government, and I'll name you a corrupt capitalist one. This argument of yours is going no where.
From your side of politics and morality you can never see my position.

Yours did finally go somewhere.

I have walked picket lines with World Workers Union members. Man or woman, they were radical and eventually violent in body and souless spirit, everyone of them being an atheist. This is where I got the foundation for my beliefs that Christians are indeed facing a concerted effort by "leftist" liberals (socialists) to eliminate them.

Though seriously, I am not afriad, per se, to suffer for Christ, I just really didn't believe that liberals were pretty much two-faced until being with them. With of course their real face turned away from Christians until they think you have become immoralized. I have learned better now from my experiences, literally living and working amongst them, that we Christians face an immense adversary. California, for example, is no longer America. And of course its immorality is well-known. Spain went socialist and immorality was legalized.
I really wish you would check out my current affiliation, Socialist Party USA. Check out it's principles and platform. I can't imagine you could dissagree with much of it (or it's intentions, at the very least).
I have walked with WWU people. They are for the most part my enemy as an American and my adversary in the Biblical-Christian sense.

They are devout communists that mean to overthrow our country and our government. If, as a Christian, I suffer from these godless communists, then that is my lot and I'll have to accept it.

BUT, if they ever try to overthrow this country in political-reality, I'll go to war against everyone of them. I grew up hunting and shooting with a precision that it made me well-known to the point of celebrity. If their war (which they want above all else) is inevitable I will take my stand against them. As a moral person, I can do nothing else.

The problem with leftist-socialists, like Nazi's of WWII Germany, is that they hide like parasites in society, promising lies of bread and peace, until the host is sickened and ready for easy takeover. The poor being an easy mark.

At this point, I will no longer post in this thread. Your perspective about Catholicism and Protestantism and their helping the poor is so skewed, as to see it in a light of leftist brainwashing. I cannot change your mind.

Since all of the world is on a course set by God, I'll take my lead from rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. That means religiously I will take my lot. Politically I will take my shot. We Christians freed the world of totalitarian sociopaths and unless God wills it, we will continue to fight for morality and good to triumph over evil. Hasn't it ever dawned on you that socialists have no problem with genocidal governments? Europe will deal with anyone no matter the horror being waged on citizens in countries that Europe deals with.

I see socialism as evil because it is. I read history books as well as the Bible, and history has shown people that will see it, that sociaslism brings out the worst in mankind. It has to because Marxism can do nothing else. The opium of the people is literally sedating the poor to stay inebriated and poor by socialsit programs of moral-ambiguity and not religion.

Every socialist state is founded in godless immorality. It simply (literally) spreads like an STD. If I am missing one that has Biblical morality as its base well, sorry.

Socialism rarely ever brings better morality and of course we are still waiting for socialism to do that. It will not do it with godless Marxism.

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Post #58

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At this point, I will no longer post in this thread. Your perspective about Catholicism and Protestantism and their helping the poor is so skewed, as to see it in a light of leftist brainwashing. I cannot change your mind.
Not without facts you won't.

I grew up in a conservative christian household (Church of Christ- as conservative as you can get) in the middle of a rural Right-Wing county. How is it that I managed to become a "brainwashed leftist", you may wonder?

I studied the facts. I found that most everything I had been indoctrinated into (the Bible is completely accurate in every way, all Christians are saints, all socialists are evil, the death penalty deters crime, guns are good, all poor people are lazy crackheads, gay people want to destroy Christianity and rape our children, Global Warming is a liberal myth, ect, ect, ect) were dead wrong, or riddled with fallacies. Literature and the internet were my first steps into reality (or more specifically, the escape from my biased environment). I spent a long time trying to deny the very things I am preaching now. No more.

Now, I can see why you would call me brainwashed, of course. You are afterall, the single smartest person on the planet (so smart that you do not even have to back up your statements with evidence), and anyone who disagrees with you MUST have fallen victim to the evil/freethinker/secularist/homosexual/anti-christian/communist brainwashing.

I must confess, it is a relief that you have decided to quit. I was getting rather tired of answering "history proves my point" every single God-forsaken post (especially after proving time and time again, that history does NOT prove your point). All you have had to offer are prejudiced generalizations, and one article on Bush's tax cuts. That is not getting us anywhere.
From your side of politics and morality you can never see my position.
I lived your position. Thirteen years of my life.

Then I woke up and saw the hypocrisy.
I see socialism as evil because it is. I read history books as well as the Bible, and history has shown people that will see it, that sociaslism brings out the worst in mankind.
Just curious, exactly what history are you referring to?

Are you referring to Venezuela, who in the past eight years has skyrocketed into economic prosperity by implementing socialist standards? Are you referring to socialist Kerala, the fairest, most successful region in India (a predominantly capitalist nation)? What about the fact that Capitalism has not reaped benefits in a single third world country besides South Korea and Tiawan (who, ironically, only achieved their "capitalist" success from prior socialist redistribution)? Is this the history you feel supports your argument?

Perhaps you should advert me to The United Nations; they know all about the "successes" of capitalism. For example, their statistics depicting that since the fall of marxism, global unemployment and poverty have skyrocketed (while the upper class has gotten richer... of course). Is this your history?

I know you have mentioned the United States many times. Does our "prosperity" mark the futileness of socialism? Even when considering socialist Europe, who boasts the highest employment, equality, and prosperity rates on earth?

Wait, no, all of these facts disprove your argument. So what is your "history", then?

The sweeping examples of Russia, Cuba, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, and China. Ironically, none of which are actually socialist. Sorry, Communism is not socialism, no matter how hard you will it to be.

History (while typically being rather mixed on this matter) is still NOT on your side. But the common American baseless predisposition is, if that makes you feel any better.




Capitalism most definetly succeeds in countries teeming with natural resources/capital. Countries in this category are very limited, including America, China, parts of Europe, and possibly India. The results of private enterprise in the other 95% of the world, however, are very mixed (generally the poorer the country, the least successful).

The main fallacy in your argument, is that what works in AMERICA, is not necissarily going to work everywhere (or even anywhere) else. Elitist Venezuela and Capitalist Kenya are proof enough of this. The issue in deciding the United State's economic system, for me, is how involved we should be in the economies of other nations. Is it right for blessed entrepreneurs to wallow in their billions while others around the globe starve to death? "No" would be the answer of any halfway sane individual, which just goes to show how insane most Americans are. Ignorance to other's suffering (and the poor person's unwarranted lazy crackhead carticature) plays some part in our complatancy. Right-Wingers and "fair tax" advocates constitute the other part.
If I am missing one that has Biblical morality as its base well, sorry.
Um, how about the society of Jesus' disciples (Acts 2:42-47)?

But if you are using fundamentalist America as the standard, I suppose pretty much every socialist nation in the history of the planet would be considered Christianly.
The problem with leftist-socialists, like Nazi's of WWII Germany, is that they hide like parasites in society, promising lies of bread and peace, until the host is sickened and ready for easy takeover. The poor being an easy mark.
Kind of like the homosexuals hiding in your closet waiting to ambush your marriage and rape your children?
I have walked picket lines with World Workers Union members. Man or woman, they were radical and eventually violent in body and souless spirit, everyone of them being an atheist.
Can you blame them? Christians have become the enemy. It is the Christians who consistently vote against workers rights. Not consciously, of course. Afterall, most have become blind to all issues not relating to gays and abortion. I wonder if even half the people at my church know what Bush's inane stragety has done to the middle class.

Anyway, I am struggling to comprehend how the WWU got involved in this. What, you couldn't dig up any dirt on the Socialist Party USA?

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Post #59

Post by 1John2_26 »

Quote:
At this point, I will no longer post in this thread. Your perspective about Catholicism and Protestantism and their helping the poor is so skewed, as to see it in a light of leftist brainwashing. I cannot change your mind.

Not without facts you won't.

I grew up in a conservative christian household (Church of Christ- as conservative as you can get) in the middle of a rural Right-Wing county. How is it that I managed to become a "brainwashed leftist", you may wonder?

I studied the facts. I found that most everything I had been indoctrinated into (the Bible is completely accurate in every way, all Christians are saints, all socialists are evil, the death penalty deters crime, guns are good, all poor people are lazy crackheads, gay people want to destroy Christianity and rape our children, Global Warming is a liberal myth, ect, ect, ect) were dead wrong, or riddled with fallacies. Literature and the internet were my first steps into reality (or more specifically, the escape from my biased environment). I spent a long time trying to deny the very things I am preaching now. No more.

Now, I can see why you would call me brainwashed, of course. You are afterall, the single smartest person on the planet (so smart that you do not even have to back up your statements with evidence), and anyone who disagrees with you MUST have fallen victim to the evil/freethinker/secularist/homosexual/anti-christian/communist brainwashing.

I must confess, it is a relief that you have decided to quit. I was getting rather tired of answering "history proves my point" every single God-forsaken post (especially after proving time and time again, that history does NOT prove your point). All you have had to offer are prejudiced generalizations, and one article on Bush's tax cuts. That is not getting us anywhere.
I come from a life of absolute atheism. Pure hedonism and selfishness. I am now, the "fundie" you cannot let fade away without another diatribe of self-soothing rhetoric. I looked at the world and its rapid descent into evil and said "Those Christians are right." BY FACTS. I am now a believer in Christ Jesus.
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From your side of politics and morality you can never see my position.

I lived your position. Thirteen years of my life.

Then I woke up and saw the hypocrisy.
As typical a story as it gets. Now you embrace a whole new violent version of hypocrisy. Sounds very college-student in today's world to me. Chavez was a big supporter of Hussein when he was raping and beheading anyone he wanted to. Your "Christian" Chavez.
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I see socialism as evil because it is. I read history books as well as the Bible, and history has shown people that will see it, that sociaslism brings out the worst in mankind.

Just curious, exactly what history are you referring to?
United Soviet Socialist republic. National Socialist party in Germany. Socialism becomes evil as fast as a whore turns to drugs to live with herself.
Are you referring to Venezuela, who in the past eight years has skyrocketed into economic prosperity by implementing socialist standards? Are you referring to socialist Kerala, the fairest, most successful region in India (a predominantly capitalist nation)?
Look up the "Dalit" in your wonderful India. If Venezuela didn't have the free market and the most sought after commodity on the planet, Chavez wouldn't exist in any print media.
What about the fact that Capitalism has not reaped benefits in a single third world country besides South Korea and Tiawan (who, ironically, only achieved their "capitalist" success from prior socialist redistribution)? Is this the history you feel supports your argument?


Look up evangelical Christianty in South Korea. And look to the US for the existence of Taiwan as a reality. Otherwise your Chinese socialist comrades would have obliterated the "rights" of the Taiwanese long ago.
Perhaps you should advert me to The United Nations; they know all about the "successes" of capitalism. For example, their statistics depicting that since the fall of marxism, global unemployment and poverty have skyrocketed (while the upper class has gotten richer... of course). Is this your history?


Why can't countries not American develope what we have? Morality is an American trait.
I know you have mentioned the United States many times. Does our "prosperity" mark the futileness of socialism? Even when considering socialist Europe, who boasts the highest employment, equality, and prosperity rates on earth?


By forced taxation they have implemented a form of slavery. Europeans are lemmings we Americans do not want to be.

Wait, no, all of these facts disprove your argument. So what is your "history", then?
The sweeping examples of Russia, Cuba, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, and China. Ironically, none of which are actually socialist. Sorry, Communism is not socialism, no matter how hard you will it to be.


Socialism always starts as a good thing and the rich power-mongers at the top do what socialists do. They become despots. If you want to start a Christian socialist country that proclaims morality and family values then we can talk. Every sociualist I have walked with is a godless reprobate that sees "anything goes" except Christianity. I am a union member still. I have threaten to sue my union for political illegal actions on several occasions.
History (while typically being rather mixed on this matter) is still NOT on your side. But the common American baseless predisposition is, if that makes you feel any better.
Marxism is an opiate of the people that have no ambition other than to screw and eat.
Capitalism most definetly succeeds in countries teeming with natural resources/capital. Countries in this category are very limited, including America, China, parts of Europe, and possibly India. The results of private enterprise in the other 95% of the world, however, are very mixed (generally the poorer the country, the least successful).
Many people want more to life than to be told what they will get. It is called freedom. Socialism becomes communism and countries become horror. It's history whether your college professors tell you it is not.
The main fallacy in your argument, is that what works in AMERICA, is not necissarily going to work everywhere (or even anywhere) else. Elitist Venezuela and Capitalist Kenya are proof enough of this. The issue in deciding the United State's economic system, for me, is how involved we should be in the economies of other nations. Is it right for blessed entrepreneurs to wallow in their billions while others around the globe starve to death?
Feeding the poor is the job of middle class Christians. Once those people are fed and healthy they want to come to America "to get rich!" Wake up.
"No" would be the answer of any halfway sane individual, which just goes to show how insane most Americans are.
Russia is sick and dying and we Christian free-Americans are what they want to become.
Ignorance to other's suffering (and the poor person's unwarranted lazy crackhead carticature) plays some part in our complatancy. Right-Wingers and "fair tax" advocates constitute the other part.
Walk the real streets of America or the world and see that the crackhead is a real person. Sold-out by socialism's slavery inducing ethics.

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If I am missing one that has Biblical morality as its base well, sorry.

Um, how about the society of Jesus' disciples (Acts 2:42-47)?


That is communism, based on worshipping the Risen Christ you have thrown away. Please do not offend Christians. You have made your choices. You have chosen the gun that will eventually be in the socialistic endeavor.
But if you are using fundamentalist America as the standard, I suppose pretty much every socialist nation in the history of the planet would be considered Christianly.
Not if you compare the history of socialism. It is godless and violent. When Christian political leaders held socialistic ideology they embraced violence. It is natural. Chavez is more than likely doing that very thing to anyone that opposes him.
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The problem with leftist-socialists, like Nazi's of WWII Germany, is that they hide like parasites in society, promising lies of bread and peace, until the host is sickened and ready for easy takeover. The poor being an easy mark.

Kind of like the homosexuals hiding in your closet waiting to ambush your marriage and rape your children?
Or hiding in plain sight as a priest or other trusted childrens leader you mean? Remember godless marxists have redefined and revised moral values. Christians are hated by marxists because of their moral values. What are the iron block countries now that we can see them? Sex slave traders.
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I have walked picket lines with World Workers Union members. Man or woman, they were radical and eventually violent in body and souless spirit, everyone of them being an atheist.

Can you blame them? Christians have become the enemy.
You may want to actually read Marx and Engels for yourself. Your college teachers are lairs. Christians have always been the enemies of socialists.
It is the Christians who consistently vote against workers rights. Not consciously, of course. Afterall, most have become blind to all issues not relating to gays and abortion. I wonder if even half the people at my church know what Bush's inane stragety has done to the middle class.


ALL of my Democrat friends wonder what happened to "their" party. It is now the party of abortion and gay rights. Again you've got the wrong facts.
Anyway, I am struggling to comprehend how the WWU got involved in this. What, you couldn't dig up any dirt on the Socialist Party USA?
I entered socialist party in google and the WWU popped up. Besides socialism and communism are always connected.

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MagusYanam
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Post #60

Post by MagusYanam »

1John2_26 wrote:I looked at the world and its rapid descent into evil and said "Those Christians are right." BY FACTS. I am now a believer in Christ Jesus.
That's not a very Christian view, by facts or otherwise. The world isn't rapidly descending into evil, the evil has been there ever since the fall. And you're not going to make it any better by blaming liberals or teachers. Open your eyes - we're the one's trying to fix the problems, applying the elbow grease. We're trying to help make people responsible, and we'd appreciate all the help we can get. Help, not more conservative bitching.
1John2_26 wrote:ALL of my Democrat friends wonder what happened to "their" party. It is now the party of abortion and gay rights. Again you've got the wrong facts.
Ever heard of the Consistent Life Ethic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistent_Life_Ethic

This is the liberalism I grew up in. The liberal Democrats I encounter who believe the converse are few and far between. It seems that you are here attacking a straw man.
1John2_26 wrote:Christians have always been the enemies of socialists.

...

Besides socialism and communism are always connected.
Read Niebuhr, or any reliable history text. The first anti-Nazis and anti-Communists in this country were, in fact, Socialists - Niebuhr, FDR, Truman - all belonged to the same tradition of moderate socialism which we used to call the 'Vital Centre'. And guess what? They were all Christian, every one of them. Starting with Schleiermacher all the way up to Martin Luther King, Jr. and his political heirs.

It's too bad that politics these days are so polarised that the Vital Centre can't be revitalised without a lot of work.
1John2_26 wrote:Walk the real streets of America or the world and see that the crackhead is a real person.
I don't know what the hell kind of 'real' streets of America you're walking, but where I'm from (about as urban as you can get), the crackhead is far less likely to be found on the 'real' streets than the poor blighter who's down on his luck. Life isn't as melodramatic or as black-and-white as FOX News - if you had one, you might realise this.
1John2_26 wrote:Morality is an American trait.
Is this the same trait that's producing the vulgarities of consumer culture or the excesses of big business? Is this the same trait that's widening the gap between rich and poor even as we type on this forum? Is this the same trait that's pumping the vast majority of the world's carbon dioxide into the air?

Sorry, real morality is a human trait - anyone who's studied any kind of history or any kind of ethics knows this basic fact. And generally speaking, it's not one Americans in general tend to be good at realising.
1John2_26 wrote:And look to the US for the existence of Taiwan as a reality. Otherwise your Chinese socialist comrades would have obliterated the "rights" of the Taiwanese long ago.
The Taiwanese didn't have any legal rights until the Jiang family and their GMD dictatorship were out of power. They improved their own lot through voting in the MJD; the U.S. had nothing to do with it.

And, believe it or not (this is from someone who's actually been to mainland China within the past year), China is getting better as far as rights go, this entire furor over Google and weblogs aside. People in Wangfujing are in the streets discussing things they wouldn't have dared discuss as little as ten years ago, wearing T-shirts with slogans they wouldn't have dared show ten years ago, selling books that wouldn't have been available as little as ten years ago.

I'm just presenting the facts.

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