Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

Post #1

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...



He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.


And feeding and clothing the poor.
Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.
So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem — not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.
As you can see, a truly evil man.
Last edited by The Persnickety Platypus on Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #2

Post by 1John2_26 »

Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!
Chavez as a great guy?

"Would this be the equivalent to "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage?"

Leftists and liberals have never heard of the term: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?" Of course not it is their agenda and prayer every night. Guess history lessons from Lenin and Stalin don't get taught to some people.

You think this Chavez parasite is ever going to allow himself voted out of office? Bush will be gone in two years and then the abominations get started, but still leftists are rid of their moral better in our system.

His part of the world going communist is typical of a vapid and easily led populuce, looking for handouts from people that work to acheive more than twenty children to leave their legacy.
Just a thought? Why aren't Mexicans and many, many other latinos rushing to become Venezuelan citizens?


Even illegally?

Chavez a hero?

My stand against liberals/leftists finds stronger validation every day.

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Post #3

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

You think this Chavez parasite is ever going to allow himself voted out of office?
I sure hope not. We all know what sort of person the other candidate will be (another elitist looking to give the country back the the rich).
Leftists and liberals have never heard of the term: Absolute power corrupts absolutely?

Apparently, niether has Bush and his cronies.

But curiously, these power hungry liberals you speak of are the only people who will hold him accountable for it. So absolute power is bad... unless it is in the hands of your theocratic conservatives?
Bush will be gone in two years and then the abominations get started, but still leftists are rid of their moral better in our system.
You are a little late, the abominations started six years ago.

- Tax cuts for the rich
- A waning middle class
- Minimum wage stuck at poverty level
- Full scale overhaul of all our nations recent environmental progressions
- Discrimination as an American value
- The Iraq Oil War
- Economic landslide (unless you are wealthy)
- Unwarranted spying on American citizens
- ect ect ect

I sure wish Bolivarianism would infect America sometime soon. Chavez has actually offered poor Americans cheapened oil... imagine our government doing that, and try to keep a straight face.

But I digress, this is no laughing matter. It is cold hard reality- just ask average joe over there toiling away for minimum wage, trying to pay college admission... only having to use it buy gas to get to work. Better get comfortable joe, you're not going anywhere, not if George has something to say about it.
His part of the world going communist is typical of a vapid and easily led populuce, looking for handouts from people that work to acheive more than twenty children to leave their legacy.
Government handouts? All Hugo offers is opportunity, which may only start by leveling the playing field (a rather simple concept our government continues to ignore).
Just a thought? Why aren't Mexicans and many, many other latinos rushing to become Venezuelan citizens?

Even illegally?
The country has suffered under oppressive rule for centuries, and has not had ample time to rebound after only a few years under Chavez.

But here is a question for you: why are all the RICH in Venezuela fleeing to the UNITED STATES?

It's okay, big brother George will protect your money. He won't let mean old Hugo give it away to those evil starving citizens.
Chavez a hero?
It appears as if you are under the impression that the new system has not benefitted the Venezuelan populace.
I knew that the administration of Hugo Chavez had won my heart when I met Olivia Delfino in one of the poor barrios in Caracas. As I was touring the neighborhood with an international delegation here to monitor this Sunday's referendum on Chavez, Olivia came out of her tiny house and grabbed my arm. Tell the people of your country that we love Hugo Chavez, she insisted. She went on to tell me how her life had changed since he came to power. After living in the barrio for 40 years, she now had a formal title to her home. With that, she was able to get a bank loan to fix the roof so it wouldn't leak in the rain. Thanks to the Cuban dentists and a program called Rescatando la sonrisa -recovering the smile-for the first time in her life she was able to get her teeth fixed. And her daughter is in a job training program to become a nurse's assistant.

Getting more and more animated, Olivia dragged me over to a poster on the wall showing Hugo Chavez with a throng of followers and a list of Venezuela's new social programs that read: The social programs are ours, let's defend them. Then slowly and laboriously, she began reading the list of social programs: literacy, health care, job training, land reform, subsidized food, small loans. I asked her if she was just learning to read and write as part of the literacy program. That's when she started to cry. Can you imagine what it has meant to me, at 52 years old, to now have a chance to read? she said. It's transformed my life.

Walk through the poor neighborhoods in Venezuela and you'll hear the same stories over and over. The very poor now can go to a designated home in the neighborhood to pick up a hot meal every day. The elderly now have monthly pensions that allow them to live with dignity. Young people can take advantage of greatly expanded free college programs. And with 13,000 Cuban doctors spread throughout the country and reaching over half the population, the poor now have their own family doctors on call 24-hours a day-doctors who even make house calls. This heath care, including medicines, are all free.

The programs are being paid for with the income from Venezuela's oil, which is at an all-time high. Previously, the nation's oil wealth benefited only a small, well-connected elite who kept themselves in power for 40 years through a two-party duopoly. The elite, who controlled the media as well, kept the vast majority poor, disenfranchised, and disempowered. With the election of Hugo Chavez in 1998 on a platform of sharing the nation's oil wealth with the poorest, all that has changed. The poor are now not only recipients of these programs, they are engaged in running them. They're turning abandoned buildings into neighborhood centers, running community kitchens; volunteering to teach in the literacy programs, organizing neighborhood health brigades and registering millions of new voters.

Infuriated by their loss of power, the elite use their control over the media to blast Chavez for destroying the economy, cozying up to Fidel Castro, antagonizing the US government, expropriating private property, and using dictatorial rule. They also accuse him of using the social programs that have so improved the lives of the poor as a way to buy votes.

The opposition managed to collect enough signatures to trigger this Sunday's referendum on the president's mandate. Chavez supporters, bolstered by almost every poll, expect to win. The opposition can lie all they want about Chavez, said Olivia defiantly, but the facts speak for themselves. Before no one cared about us, the poor. Now they do. When I asked her what was going to happen on Sunday, she grinned. First we're going to vote. And then we'll gather in front of the presidential palace for a huge victory party.

- Mendea Benjamin, founder of the human rights group “Global Exchange”, and the women’s peace group “CodePink”.
70% of Venezuelans (that being a very tentative figure) wholeheartedly support Chavez. There's an approval rating George dares not even dream of. The 30% who do not support him are either (1) rich, (2) political opponents with an American-esque agenda, (3) rich, (4) apathetic, or (5) rich. Did I mention that rich people do not support him?

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Post #4

Post by 1John2_26 »

I'm sorry, blaspheming the gods Michael Moore and Karl Marx is useless.

Chavez will prove the totalitarian monster that all communist dictators are. Moore has already been shown as a washer of minds looking for cheap majiuana and cocaine and the legalization of their use.

Presentation and defense of this man Chavez, and communism in latin countries as a good thing, proves that nothing said against him or the resurrection of the dead lie of communism will mean anything to the worshipper of both.

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Post #5

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

In other words, all you have against Hugo is the presumption that he might someday turn out to be an evil dictator?

George Bush might someday start standing for the common man. That does not mean I am going to start supporting him.



Technically, he (Chavez) all ready is a dictator. Look how many people have benefitted from it. Let the rule continue.

Your argument is based on ideology, not reason. You, just as the rest of us, have been indoctrinated into the idea that Communism is inherently evil. Fidel Castro's brand of "Communism" is evil. The theory Marx formulated is, at base value, quite noble. It's not his fault some dictators have decided to use the system's power for their own gain (just as a certain capitalist "president" I know has done).

Would you prefer it if the country became free, and the poor populace was (once again) forced to bend at the will of the few rich elite? Hmm, what country does that remind you of? Government interference, as Venezuela accurately portrays, is essential to promoting the gereral wellfare of citizens.

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Post #6

Post by 1John2_26 »

In other words, all you have against Hugo is the presumption that he might someday turn out to be an evil dictator?
Based on hard historical evidence that communist leaders are despots. Natural law.
George Bush might someday start standing for the common man. That does not mean I am going to start supporting him.


I am a very common man. Truly a face in the crowd, financially and personality. George W. Bush speaks directly to me and my family and peers.
Technically, he (Chavez) all ready is a dictator. Look how many people have benefitted from it. Let the rule continue.
And we will see the same natural law as gravity. Corruption follows communism like VD to a whore. Capitalism and a free market economy offers a true freedom to anyone. Ask China what is bringing its communism to an end? And the people are smiling more everyday. Unless Chavez tells them what they can and cannot have to smile over.
Your argument is based on ideology, not reason.
Forgetting historical fact to believe that communists are tyrants.
You, just as the rest of us, have been indoctrinated into the idea that Communism is inherently evil.
Many non-Christians, do not see that Christianty has communistic foundation. Thank God Christ can be followed outside of typical communism ideology.
Fidel Castro's brand of "Communism" is evil.
Cause and effect. Natural law. Communism on the world's satge of history.
The theory Marx formulated is, at base value, quite noble. It's not his fault some dictators have decided to use the system's power for their own gain (just as a certain capitalist "president" I know has done).


Interesting that Christianty doesn't get painted with such an immense liberal treatment.
Would you prefer it if the country became free, and the poor populace was (once again) forced to bend at the will of the few rich elite?
Where communists proliferate, violence follows. The poor always suffer from power-mongers, right and left versions. But far worse under communism. It is a fact.
Hmm, what country does that remind you of?
Russia? China? Cuba? Vietnam? All such great places for freedom.
Government interference, as Venezuela accurately portrays, is essential to promoting the gereral wellfare of citizens.
That sounds like massive executions are on the way. With one man the judge.

Start a new thread and we'll go toe to toe on the abominable practices of communism.

My reference material is very large and easy to draw on.

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Post #7

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Let us discuss this involvement between Chavez and Communism.

Hugo is labeled a communist because he stripped the previous "democracy" of it's power. Simple enough.



Now let us discuss this previous "democracy". What was it in reality? A full fledged plutocracy. Hence, not actually a "democracy". The legislative branch was inherently corrupt, as is well documented, succeeding in pushing 80% of the population below poverty level. Essentially, Chavez is considered a Communist for overthrowing a government operating under the platform of state sponsored inequity. Rather ironic, don't you think?

But Hugo does operate under a red flag, I will not deny that. So why is this necissary? Do the wealthy faction's frequent plots of overthrow not speak for themselves?

Instituting a democratic government would mean offering the elitists a chance back into power, and no one wants that. Except of course, the United States.

Why is that, you may wonder? Well, if it was not all ready obvious enough for you, under Chavez's government, most of the oil wealth goes to the poor. The more money in the hands of the poor, the less oil US corporations get. The United States has sponsored (and most likely even taken part in) multiple uprisings against the Hugo's regime under the guise of "insuring democracy". Don't let them feed you that crap. It's always about money and power with America. God forbid we ever offer unconditional aid.

The crimes of Chavez:

- Last year the government created a thousand "Bolivarian Schools," which provide students with additional hours of instruction and two hot meals a day.

- Teachers' salaries doubled

- Public schools were forbidden from charging parents "supplementary fees."

- Primary school enrollment has increased by a million students.

- Quadrupled spending on health care

- Vast construction of rural clinics

- Free emergency care in Venezuela's public hospitals

- SUMED, a state funded nationwide chain of subsidized pharmacies where drugs sell for 30 to 40 percent below market prices.

- Subsidized "popular markets" in which soldiers with otherwise idle military vehicles are sent into the countryside to buy produce from farmers, transport it to towns and cities, then sell it at below cost to small vendors who pass on a 30 percent savings to consumers.

- An attempt to create 100,000 new jobs through "civic-military production units," in which soldiers and civilians work together on road-building, forest restoration and agricultural projects.

- plans to clamp down on tax evasion by large businesses.

- inflation cut from around 40 percent to a projected 12 percent



These are the sorts of things you are arguing against, as Hugo has done scarcely nothing else the past eight years.

Oh, but I forgot, he is a leftist, which automatically makes him evil. Nevermind the widescale abolishment of poverty; shameless liberal propoganda.


OH IF ONLY HE WOULD USE HIS POWER FOR GOOD.................(Like bloating the upper class.)

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Post #8

Post by 1John2_26 »

Where are Chavez' opposition? His enemies?

As can be seen plainly on the news, President Bush's opposition party members are alive and very, very well. In fact all wealthy people freely living their lives in the "opposition party," soon maybe even taking the majority back in congress.

What happened to the Chavez opposition?

This "Christian" man.

Following is a slice from an interview on a leftist/communist TV station called ironically "Democracy Now." When you watch this station (on both Dish and Direct) it is laughable how leftist-cliche they are. I thought it appropriate to post a piece of their "open-minded" interview of Chavez.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 20/1330218

From Chavez:
And from my Christian point of view, we need a revolution of the ethic. And in the political and economic fields we need to take back the flag of socialism, in my view - in order to be able to defeat - with the will of the people, with the participation of the people – to beat those ominous phenomenon such as racism.
I'm curious how the "Christian man" treated his "enemies?"

I'm also curious if dreams of owning anything other than a squalid apartment sanctioned and allowed by the "socialist" state is anything a person can actually attain in this new leftist utopia setup by the Christian Chavez? Russia and Cuba are not exactly lending support for anything good to be expected.

Maybe "I" a right-wing conservative believer in a free market economy, and free man indeed, may just fly down to Venezuela and check out how free the dreams of these people are to becoming a reality.

Then again, liking both George W. Bush and Pat Robertson may not get me the best suite at the Hilton huh?

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Post #9

Post by 1John2_26 »

Quote:
You think this Chavez - edited - is ever going to allow himself voted out of office?

I sure hope not. We all know what sort of person the other candidate will be (another elitist looking to give the country back the the rich).
So when can we apply this new utopian concept of an "ekected officiel" to the American Presidency. I feel very safe with President Bush in office for another thirty years. I'm sure the growing number of Evangelicals feel the same.

Quote:
Leftists and liberals have never heard of the term: Absolute power corrupts absolutely?

Apparently, niether has Bush and his cronies.


Ah but the GOP has a healthy and vibrant and more importantly a free opposition party filled with members not in prisons. Though I know one Massachusetts Democrat senator that deserves to be.
But curiously, these power hungry liberals you speak of are the only people who will hold him accountable for it. So absolute power is bad... unless it is in the hands of your theocratic conservatives?


This statment condemns Chavez. He will never allow himself to be rid of. Socialists never mean freedom except for porno and sexual perversion and the socialized medicine that those lifestyles garner a great need for.

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Post #10

Post by Chimp »

I feel the need to clear up a misconception...

Chavez is a socialist...not a communist. They are not the same thing.

It may also surprise you to know the US does not participate in a free-market
with respect to it's timber, farming, oil, and pharmaceutical industries. Not only
are they subsidized, but they are often given tax breaks, public funds and the
use of public land for their profit.

--Edit for idiotic misspelling...sry couldn't stand to look at it

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