Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...

He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.

And feeding and clothing the poor.

Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.

So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem — not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.

As you can see, a truly evil man.

[1John2_26]

Quote:
That a totalitarian communist dictator is a "good guy."

First of all, you have to seperate the word "totalitarian" from dictator.

On what planet? The earth has a track record that communist and dictator and totalitarian are all one. That would be from studying books not printed in Cuba or the Bay Area of California.

I don't pretend that Cuba or Venezuela are the worker's paradise that many of Chavez's supporters say it is.

There's no free press. What do you think we would see if there was?

The United States is certainly no worker's paradise either. There have been plenty of people in America who have worked hard and failed miserably.

And recovered from bankruptcy and became rich.

As poor as the socialist economies are, I would prefer living in those poor socialist countries than to live in North Korea or Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Slavery or death. I guess it is a "choice."

Under your blind ideology, every socialist leader is a Josef Stalin waiting to kill everyone.

"Blind?" "Ideology?" How about historical facts? What communist country has an illegal immigrant problem? OK Spain. But they build walls and those that get through them are transported back where they came from. American socialists (Democrats) are not this smart.

There have been ruthless leaders in the Capitalist system too.

As I move into my new home I'll tip a forty to their memories.

There have been ruthless religious leaders in Christianity and Islam who have waged unjust wars in the name of religion.

"HAVE?" Past tense????? Only applies to Christians. Muslims are a now as they always have been fact.

Please get you subject matter correct. Propaganda does not work on me.

We can find people doing bad things under every system, but Only God has the authority to judge man's heart.

Socialism-communism-atheism. The evolution of evolution.

Historiacal facts!!!! And still.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Socialism breeds violence as well. (That's why I would brand and silience these violent communists, as an American.)

Wait, wern't you the one rambling on about free speech just a minute ago? A little contradictory, don't you think?

I really don't see your point here, as Capitalism spawns just as much (probably more) violence than anything. The very basis of the system relies on market competition. Do I really need to list the many hundreds of imperialist plights of economic superpowers on weaker countries? Heck, that's how the US got a lot of it's wealth.

I'd love to see Chavez's breakfast meal. I'll bet it isn't tortilla's and beans every single day.

It might BE tortillas and beans. I wouldn't know.

I DO know, however, the extravagant meals a "compassionate conservative" such as Mr. Bush partakes in. Everyone knows, the American millionaire has no problem flaunting his wealth (knowing full and well the poverty many others worldwide undergo everyday). People love them for it. Sickening.

People deserve what they get. I'll bet they are never going to be able to afford a ranchhouse and land on "$40 a week." Just have children that will someday make $41 a week. Whoopee!

ARE PEOPLE ONLY WORTH $40 DOLLARS A DAY? Answer that question comrade.

"$40 dollars a week? Look at what you are saying man???? They are being sold into slavery.

I see it's time for another lesson in simple economics.

Most employers in Venezuela are dirt poor, just like their hired counterparts. In order for an businessperson to make any sort of profit, he (obviously) cannot be forced to pay his employees more than he can afford. Otherwise the business would fall apart, right? Simple enough?

Sure, you could raise the weekly minimum wage to a few hundred dollars, as it is in America. Then watch as the economy completely crumbles.

Also, you need to consider the value of a dollar in Venezuela, where $40 a week is easily enough to support an entire family. In America it is scarcely enough to buy a sandwitch.

Do you have the slightest clue what you are talking about? I seriously cannot believe I just had to explain that.

I would also like to point out that the minimum wage in America would put a reliant worker well under the poverty level. It is the capitalist/conservatives that have been resisting its increase for years (even despite the inflation trends). So much for the American dream.

ANSWER THE QUESTION. Why are people NOT flooding to Chavez paradise???????

I have answered it twice, "comrade".

You know, the difference between American and Venezuelan resource/capital? If you dissagree with that answer, then please offer an alternative. If not, then leave this failed argument be.

Not one person WANTS to live on $40 a week.

Funny, because the Venezuelans are simply estatic about it. Have you read the testimonials I posted? The capitalist wages were scarcely HALF the current amount.

The problem with American politics is cowards on the Left, that shriek in hysteria when America brings freedom to countries.

Like around twenty years ago when they installed this guy named "Saddam Hussain" as dictator of Iraq?

Simply amazing. America starts the fire, and then is the big hero for putting it out. The US has never, EVER, in the 200+ years of existance, ever "helped" another nation without expectations of something in return. The sooner you accept this, the sooner we can change it.

But nothing is going to change as long as this "hero America" bull*** still stands.

You are going to be left with a lot of blank stares. What exports can Africa provide? By what means do they utilize what little resources they have? How do they ship them?

We teach them the American way without leftist interference.

And just what is the "American way"? Walk down the street and apply for a job at McDonalds? No fast food joints in Africa. Make good grades and go to college? What, at the University of Ethiopia?

The American way has failed in Africa. Every time, every place. When are you going to see that?

Obviously you have to provide them with some capital to start off with.

Get Democrats out of the way and this could happen.

What, the Republican method? Tax breaks for the rich?

Lower class America has ALWAYS voted Democrat. The only reason this has recently changed is because the Republicans have decided to go Bible-thumping. Now pointless non-issues litter their platform. The impressionable public suck it up. "Vote Republican or go to hell"; the most successful campaign theme America has ever seen.

Via Socialism.

Via loans from capitalist banks. Handouts runout.

Yeah, the banks are going to be real chuffed about making loans to unemployed Africans in mud huts. That is, unless they have started accepting repay in the form of bark and beetles.

A loan might work. Problem is, UNREGULATED Capitalist banks geared toward PROFIT are never going to lend them. And the government has no power to force them, not under conservative rule.

Why would anyone be motivated in a socialist (commie) country? To give 60% of their income to people that do not want to do anything to better their lives than to just be born?

There goes the lazy crackhead poor person carticature. I knew you would revert to it eventually, it's the argument every conservative falls back on to protect their money from going somewhere where it will be of actual use.

Wake up! The "countries" economic rise has nothing to do with "peoples" ability to rise above the herd. FREEDOM!

Wait, so freedom is why Venezuela is doing so well under Chavez? But I thought Hugo was an evil totalitarian communist dictator denying free speech?

You wake up. When Venezuela was "free", the elite had the liberty of monopolizing all the countries wealth. The economy is mushrooming under Hugo. A basic fact.

And Venezuela is stregthening its Army/military!!! WHAT A SURPRISE.

After America has threatened attack, and even supported uprisings?

I would be too.

You just presented facts that Venezuale is a filthy rich oil country. AND it is. Why aren't the people provided money to build their own wealth?????
Hello?

Hello? They are.

Do you read my posts? Providing money is what Hugo Chavez has been doing to past eight years.

Kenyan's need to fight for freedoms.

THEY HAVE FREEDOMS. IT IS A CAPITALIST NATION.

And failing miserably (even moreso than before).

Not necissarily just nationwide socialism, but GLOBAL socialism.

So Christians are not paranoid. THIS IS what you leftists want. I know it of course because the Bible is truth, but it is nice to see this darkness pop into the light once in awhile.

Your Global mark . . . forehead or hand?

Yeah, I want all the worlds nations to share and work together to achieve a common good. Anti-Christian?

You do know that the Bible teaches Socialism, right?

Luk 3:11
He answered them, "Whoever has two shirts should share with the person who doesn't have any. Whoever has food should share it too."

The very definition of Socialism.

1John 3:17
Now, suppose a person has enough to live on and notices another believer in need. How can God's love be in that person if he doesn't bother to help the other believer?

Isn't this exactly what I have been saying about taxing the rich?

Act 2:42-45
The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles. All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.

Well what do you know! Jesus' disciples practiced Socialism!

Act 4:32-35
The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.

So much for Capitalist private ownership being Christianly.



Also refer to Luke 12:33, Acts 20:35, 2 Cor 9:9, Phil 2:3-4, Phil 3:3, and Romans 12:13.

You are not just arguing against leftists. You are arguing against Biblical doctrine.


CONTINUED:

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Here's an idea, you "compassionate" conservatives. Send our troops to Africa (Oh, but wait, God forbid they actually do anything useful).

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out? Is that what you mean?

Charity is what I mean. Soldiers don't ALWAYS fight, you know. They are pretty good for transporting and distributing supplies.

Bill Gates is what everyone wants to be.

I don't want to be Bill Gates. I could not possibly hoard all that money knowing that there are people out there that need it. Honestly, I feel guilty just saving up a few hundred dollars.

Give me liberty or give me death. Try taking away liberty from Americans and there is going to be death like no pitiful little latin leftist could comprehend.

You need to understand, the ONLY liberty I want to take away is the people's, government's, and business's current right to hoard unnecissary wealth. This may also entail having to forcibly silence those who cherish the inequity. If that is the case, then so be it.

I work hard and see my money going to worthless democrat/leftist causes.

Like roads and schools? Those good for nothing taxes!

I live in Virginia, where the recent DEMOCRATIC governor Mark Warner has sent the festering economy mushrooming into success. How? HIGHER TAXES.

Interesting that the US economy has traditionally done much better under Democrat legislation. Evil liberals.

AND ONLY Venezuelan poor want to live in Venezuela, because they know there is no way out now. But I'll bet those 3 billion would leave for the States in one second.

Is it too hard for you to accept the overwhelming approval rating of the new Venezuela? The citizens are tired of suffering under your brand of "freedom".

The rich pay more taxes than anyone else.

Yet still not near enough.

There is no difference in socialism and communism. When dictators take over Marx is proven the idiot that he truly was.

I bolded that so you can quote me.

And a fine quote it is.

Check the dictionary, by the way.

There are BILLIONS more people now pal. Peddle this sophomore college propaganda to someone else.

Even considering, wouldn't you expect some Capitalist triumph to permeate? I mean, just a little?

You can't cop out of plain and resolute statistics that easily. But anyway, the issue was more about generalizing. If you reject Socialism on the sole basis of a few oppressive communist countries, couldn't I support it using the many failed current capitalist systems? Oh nevermind. I guess it does not matter how much Bolivarism benefits Venezuela, you will always negate it on principle.

I could also dwell on the fact that more children over the age of five are dying in 14 countries, and that enrollment in primary schools is down in another 12.

AND in America?

I believe so, actually.

Then of course, I could sufficiently rest my very case on the fact that in former soviet nations recently taken to capitalism, poverty has trippled.

The free press has tripled.

So you would choose free press over basic human needs?

"UN STATISTICS?" Is there any hope for a communist mind?

Yeah, UN. You know, like, the United Nations?

YES, the wealthy that OWN the machines and companies that employ the world's workforce.

While oppressing them.

A decent Christian cannot stand for it.

[1John2_26]

You renounce your faith in Christ and then use the Bible?

How leftist. Sounds like the new Democrat in American politics.

You do know that the Bible teaches Socialism, right?

The Bible teaches Christ and Christ's love. It teaches that Jesus is God, that He was born of a Virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified for the sins of mankind, was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

I know the Bible. It also condemns taking money from anyone and giving it to someone else. It also condemns liars.

If Chavez is a Born-again evangelical Christian, that will allow people to live their lives according to the New Testament and will rid his country of the evil of liberalism/communism/socialism, then I may consider this guy soneone I could support. But as it has just been shown, non-Christians can use the Bible, so you got to be carful who to trust.

For you to renounce Christ and use Biblcal quotes to suport your argument is not logical.

Luk 3:11
He answered them, "Whoever has two shirts should share with the person who doesn't have any. Whoever has food should share it too."

The very definition of Socialism.

Unforced it is an act of Christian love. Forced it never works. Read the Bible.

1John 3:17
Now, suppose a person has enough to live on and notices another believer in need. How can God's love be in that person if he doesn't bother to help the other believer?

Isn't this exactly what I have been saying about taxing the rich?

The rich are very giving in America. But of course not in liberal dominated states where only the rich can afford homes. California or Massachusetts anyone? And, many middle class people are the most apathetic. I am old enough to know this is the truth. College students know little if anything about real life and the uneducated are led easily by commies.

Act 2:42-45
The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles. All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it.

Well what do you know! Jesus' disciples practiced Socialism!

You renounced Christianity and preach to me its beauty? We are not debating perfect Christianty. We are debating totalitarian socialists. What happens in commie/socialist countries is sexual perversion and pitiless slums. The evolution of evolution. If oil didn't pay the meals of Venezuelans we would be talking about another Ethiopia only in Spanish.

Act 4:32-35
The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything.

So much for Capitalist private ownership being Christianly.

Philemon was a rich, slave-owning Christian. You need to read the Bible as it is; a fact-filled accurate history book. Christian love is never going to take root in commie/socialist countries because Christian's oppose the evil these people do. It is a historical fact.

Also refer to Luke 12:33, Acts 20:35, 2 Cor 9:9, Phil 2:3-4, Phil 3:3, and Romans 12:13.

You are not just arguing against leftists. You are arguing against Biblical doctrine.

Propaganda apologetics are not going to work on me. If you believed what you quoted, you would not have renounced Christ. I would love to see Christ's love take hold of a country.

OH WAIT! All I have to do is look at the United States and the hospitals and Universities now don't I?

Any Salvation Army heros in communist countries? No one has any money to give comrade. History has shown the worthlessness of Marxism.

Comparing Christians to communists is not going to help your totalitarian communistic goals. You'll have to oppose more than half of your sexually perverse co-members.

Here you go again:

Here's an idea, you "compassionate" conservatives. Send our troops to Africa (Oh, but wait, God forbid they actually do anything useful).

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out? Is that what you mean?

Charity is what I mean. Soldiers don't ALWAYS fight, you know. They are pretty good for transporting and distributing supplies.

I am a Christian. While billionairs like George Soros funds anti-Christian Democrat-liberal organizations (MoveOn.org), we Christians are feedind and clothing the poor all over the earth. And we are doing this while being killed delivering those clothes and food. We speak about Christ and are shot.

You want proof I'll be more than happey to prove that.

It is disrespectful for a communist/socialist (MARXIST) to use Christ to prove the beauty of Christian love towards others.

What we are left with when the iron curtain is pulled away from commie countries is to see the children used in brothels; both bought and sold, by Marxists.

BUT, as a free citizen of a free country, I'll take up arms against any attempt to spread these Marxists lies and apply them to me. It is OK to see Venezuelans as sheep to be led to commie pens for their meals, but give me liberty or give me death.

You need to understand, the ONLY liberty I want to take away is the people's, government's, and business's current right to hoard unnecissary wealth. This may also entail having to forcibly silence those who cherish the inequity. If that is the case, then so be it.

Freedom is what you want to take away. I am not deaf to the declaration of war on freedom that flows from the mouth of any and every leftist. I am repulsed by leftists by what and who they actually are. I would embrace a civil war on American soil. We could wipe away many wrongs on this land.

I work hard and see my money going to worthless democrat/leftist causes.

Like roads and schools? Those good for nothing taxes!

I live in Virginia, where the recent DEMOCRATIC governor Mark Warner has sent the festering economy mushrooming into success. How? HIGHER TAXES.

I'm looking forward to a Democrat majority in congress. Then the youth of America (that want to own things) will get to see these reprobates for what they are. The death of America will be spawned by the Democrats. I have no doubt.

Interesting that the US economy has traditionally done much better under Democrat legislation. Evil liberals.

Home OWNERSHIP is at an all-time high under this Republican congress.

Leftists drool over this fact, for the ability to tax these good people.

When the Democrats take control and tax the honest people of America then, they'll wake up and wipe away this liberals (socialist/commies) from the land.

But like always, youth have to learn truth for themselves. I was once a Democrat and a non-Christian. Evil is proclaimed by the Democrats as civil rights.

Is it too hard for you to accept the overwhelming approval rating of the new Venezuela? The citizens are tired of suffering under your brand of "freedom".

And they would leave for the United States in one-second if they could. Why I wonder?

Even considering, wouldn't you expect some Capitalist triumph to permeate? I mean, just a little?

Our hospitals and medicine are the envy of earth. Socialism literally kills hospitals. It runs them down to worthless clinics. Just before they close.

You can't cop out of plain and resolute statistics that easily.

What plain statistics do we get from the non-existent free press in commie countries? Whi is not looking at the truth?

But anyway, the issue was more about generalizing. If you reject Socialism on the sole basis of a few oppressive communist countries, couldn't I support it using the many failed current capitalist systems?

The sole basis of EVERY communist country that stayed commie and failed. That would be every one that has ever existed!!! If you notice, it is big business oil revenues that keeps Russia from sinking totally into one big hellish death camp. Venezuela would be a squalid little wanna be if it wasn't for big business oil.

I'll bet the oil executives DO NOT MAKE $40 a day in Chavez' little country?

China! Hello? It is not thriving because of Marxism. It is growing incredibly because of capitalism. The communists are hysterical trying to reel in the freedoms embraced happily by the populace.

Oh nevermind. I guess it does not matter how much Bolivarism benefits Venezuela, you will always negate it on principle.

History negates socialists. I just agree with the facts. It still takes corporate sales to drive the economy of a thriving country.

[McCulloch]

History negates socialists. I just agree with the facts. It still takes corporate sales to drive the economy of a thriving country.

By pointing out the obvious flaws with Marxism, 1John226 believes that he can discount all flavours of socialism. This may fit with his fundamentalist ideology but has little relevance in the real world.
Even the bastion of capitalist monetarism, the U.S.A., practices elements of social democracy. Many socialists would deny that the communism practiced in the former Soviet Union was not socialism but, "no more than a dictatorship over workers by a ruling elite. " http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/glossar ... #socialism
Rather than taking swings at a Soviet strawman, why don't you address the reality in Venezuela. Accoding to the CIA, Venuzuela is a federal republic, with an open, adversarial court system, universal suffrage for those 18 years of age, with eight political parties.

[1John2_26]

I think I have given a slim hope for Venezuela to possibly survive the slide from Chavez to dictatorship. But I doubt that a latin warlord will not emerge in this guy.

History backs me up and certainly with real men.

It's interesting to watch the always-present hypocrisy of the leftist.

Chavez is a man of the people and not a sophisticated elitist and George W. Bush is a bumbler because he don't talk good.

If Chavez is a Christian, then there is a slim hope that he will not become what always becomes of a Marxist totalitarian dictator.

I'll pray for him.

Like I do all my socialist enemies. I'll add him to my list of Democrats.

[Chimp]

No rotten talk should come from your mouth, but only what is good for the
building up of someone in need, in order to give grace to those who hear.
And don't grieve God's Holy Spirit, who sealed you for the day of redemption.
All bitterness, anger and wrath, insult and slander must be removed from
you, along with all wickedness. And be kind and compassionate to one
another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ.

Words to live by...

[McCulloch]

I think I have given a slim hope for Venezuela to possibly survive the slide from Chavez to dictatorship. But I doubt that a latin warlord will not emerge in this guy.
History backs me up and certainly with real men.
It's interesting to watch the always-present hypocrisy of the leftist.
Chavez is a man of the people and not a sophisticated elitist and George W. Bush is a bumbler because he don't talk good.
If Chavez is a Christian, then there is a slim hope that he will not become what always becomes of a Marxist totalitarian dictator.
I'll pray for him.
Like I do all my socialist enemies. I'll add him to my list of Democrats.

Was there some point to this response? Any logic, evidence or reason presented? I cannot see anything but right-wing rhetoric.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

But of course, if it were not for right wing rhetoric John would be left with nothing to say.

We want evidence (preferrably that which depicts Venezuela worse off under Chavez than pre-1998..... good luck at that)

You renounce your faith in Christ and then use the Bible?

How leftist. Sounds like the new Democrat in American politics.

You renounced Christianity and preach to me its beauty? We are not debating perfect Christianty. We are debating totalitarian socialists.

No, you are the one arguing Christianity. Being that it is such an issue for you, I thought you might find it interesting that Jesus' disciples taught and practiced the very system you claim is "anti-Christ".

I enjoy the majority of Jesus' teachings. I never renounced Christ, I renounced his supposed divinity.

For you to renounce Christ and use Biblcal quotes to suport your argument is not logical.

In that case, it is also illogical for you to use sexual deviants and Democrats as sources for your argument.

Unforced it is an act of Christian love. Forced it never works. Read the Bible.

Forced it never works? It is too bad you cannot apply that concept to sexual deviants.

But by and large, I don't give a crap WHAT the Bible teaches. I don't need Jesus to tell me that giving to the poor is good. Once again, I quoted the Bible for YOUR benefit.

If people cannot be bothered to do their duty for human society, they should be forced to. Allowing people to die just for the sake of protecting the "freedoms" of a few greedy blowhards? Sorry, I'm not buying that. It does not matter whether they are giving out of "Christian love". What matters is that economic justice is being rendered.

The rich are very giving in America.

America is (per capita) one of the LEAST giving nations on earth. Fact.

The rich are very giving? When you rake in Billions of dollars a year, a few thousand here and there is just pocket change. You can tell that they have run out of things to buy when they start giving to charity.

Philemon was a rich, slave-owning Christian.

And would have given ample money to the poor (assuming he was, in fact, a true Christian).

Propaganda apologetics are not going to work on me.

Then tell me, exactly what will? I have tried facts, statistics, and evidence, all to no avail. Will anything breach your inherent anti anything remotely leftist prejudice?

History has shown the worthlessness of Marxism.

You mean, in nations/regions such as Venezuela, Kerala, ect?

You need to look beyond Russia and Cuba (Which by my standards are/were not even communist... more like capitalism on steroids).

Freedom is what you want to take away. I am not deaf to the declaration of war on freedom that flows from the mouth of any and every leftist.

There is a thing as TOO MUCH freedom. The freedom to oppress workers and hoard unnecissary wealth should not be tolerated.

Does our country grant the freedom to murder another human being? Because this is exactly what the rich are doing... by definition. It is like how a doctor can be charged with murder for failing to apply the proper treatment when such treatment is readily available.

I would embrace a civil war on American soil. We could wipe away many wrongs on this land.

Interesting. Perhaps you are in need of a Bible lesson on violence as well.

Home OWNERSHIP is at an all-time high under this Republican congress.

And it's no wonder when the rich Republican cohorts are allowed to own ten different houses (the price of each which could support an entire African villiage).

But guess what, I am going to have to use your own argument against you. The American population is mushrooming.

Conservatives have prooved themselves to be economically inept. But I don't expect any Republican voters to be too concerned about this. They are happy as long as they get to deny rights to those evil liberal-commie-socialist-marxist-secular-freethinking homosexuals.

And they would leave for the United States in one-second if they could. Why I wonder?

You are STILL wondering? Even after not responding to my multiple explanations (implying that you agree)?

Time for you to leave this failed argument be. That is, unless you can support it with something other than mindless rhetoric.

Our hospitals and medicine are the envy of earth. Socialism literally kills hospitals. It runs them down to worthless clinics. Just before they close.

That's funny. Chavez has built HUNDREDS of new ones, not to mention providing free healthcare and reduced drug prices for many patients.

What plain statistics do we get from the non-existent free press in commie countries? Whi is not looking at the truth?

You get them from the THOUSANDS of American and forign missionaries, all captivated by the progress Venezuela has recently underwent.

The sole basis of EVERY communist country that stayed commie and failed. That would be every one that has ever existed!!!

Perhaps it's time you conduct a bit more research. Socialism has benefitted dozens of third world countries, South Korea, Kerala, and Tiawan, amoung those listed before.

I'll bet the oil executives DO NOT MAKE $40 a day in Chavez' little country?

They are sure as hell not making even HALF what they were before.

China! Hello? It is not thriving because of Marxism. It is growing incredibly because of capitalism. The communists are hysterical trying to reel in the freedoms embraced happily by the populace.

China? Hello? They have capital. When will you understand this?

I just agree with the facts.

Then you would agree that Venezuela is thriving under Chavez.

Apparently history does NOT negate socialists.

I'll pray for him.

For what? So he will stop giving to the poor and reversing the economic backslide?


Your position is absolutely rediculous. You treat the man like Satan himself, when all he has done henceforth has been completely moral and charitable. You oppose him for his affiliation.

Here's an idea, how about you start bashing him AFTER he becomes an evil dictator? It has been eight years, and still no sign of oppression. Open your eyes "comrade".[/quote]

[skeeterses]

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

John, you need to have a little Bible lesson. You talk about your Christian love towards your fellow man but yet you condemn Chavez for crimes he hasn't committed yet. Look at America. Good Ole Christian George Bush wants to be a dictator himself.
http://www.newsgateway.ca/bush_dictator.htm
You Christians need to clean out your own houses first before you start judging others.