US Forces fighting Chrisitian Organisation in Uganda

[Charles Darwin]

[youtube][/youtube]

How dare he!?

Funny how christians are all for killing muslim terrorists but boy when the terrorists are christians..whole nother story!

[Arctic_Guy]

This is ridiculous. If the Allies, in WWII, invaded Germany to drive every German person from the land and killed all that remained behind it would have been genocide. Your comparison is absurd, not to mention anachronistic. The "nation state" is a modern concept that was unknown to the ancient Israelites. There was no "nation state", there was a tribe, an ethnic group.

So substitute your words for mine, the point still stands. Deut. 9:4 says "It is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you." Exactly why we invaded the Axis powers and killed a lot more people than OT Israel ever did. Why the double standard?

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?� he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

This is not what happened in WWII on a smaller scale, this is genocide. You might have a point if the Allies invaded Japan, killed every Japanese man, plundered everything that any Japanese person owned, burned down every town in Japan, captured the women and children, executed the boys and non-virgin women, and kept the virgins alive to have sex with.

They were taken as wives.

How can you possibly say there is "little difference"?

The difference is we killed far more innocents in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden than ancient Israel ever did. I guess Harry Truman can make that decision, but God can't, huh? If this bothers you so much, why aren't you talking about the Flood, where God punished by death many more because of wickedness, as He has every right to do? As for the infants killed there, yes, sin often has negative consequences for other not directly involved in the sin.

As far as I can tell this has not once being about numbers, but what qulifies as genocide. And the fact is, the deeds of the Israelites do. Just to give you a closer example, the massacre of the Cathars in the 12th and 13th century also meet the defenition of genocide as set by Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn in 1990:

Genocide is a form of one-sided mass killing in which a state or other authority intends to destroy a group, as that group and membership in it are defined by the perpetrator. (The History and Sociology of Genocide: Analyses and Case Studies, Yale University Press

Although it does not appear to fit what appears to be the most recent defenition of genocide by Dovid Katz:

Genocide is the mass murder of as many people as possible on the basis of born national, ethnic, racial or religious identity as such; with intent to eliminate the targeted group entirely and internationally; without allowing the victims any option to change views, beliefs or allegiances to save themselves; and with large-scale accomplished fulfilment of the goal. Genocide leaves in its wake an extinct or nearly extinct group within the territory under the control of the perpetrators

This fits much better with the actions of the Israelites.

Let's see what the bible says about the conquest of Canaan:

3: 9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the LORD your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

Jericho:

6: 20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

Ai:

8: 24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed[a] all who lived in Ai. 27 But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the LORD had instructed Joshua.

Footnotes: [a] Joshua 8:26 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them.

10:28 That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.
29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel’s hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. 32 The LORD gave Lachish into Israel’s hands, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his army—until no survivors were left.

34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.

36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.

38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.

40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. 41 Joshua subdued them from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the whole region of Goshen to Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one campaign, because the LORD, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

And this is of course setting aside the reason God chose such sadistic tactics. If, as you claim, he just wanted them off the land, he could have moved them. He could have picked them up and dropped them on an island somewhere. Instead he chose to have them slaughtered and plundered. You have to wonder about a god who solves his problems by killing children when he has much more peaceful methods at his fingertips.

And He could also force you go believe, but He doesn't. Part of the reason was they were being punished for their wickedness. I realize to an unsaved person this is meaningless and probably wrong, just as to a Nazi our bombing of Dresden was probably some sort of crime.

So, YHWH isn't onmipotent after all? He has limits?

And the bombing of Dresden was a warcrime, no matter who you ask, that achieved nothing in paticular as far as I know. If someone knows what was achived (aside from bombing civilians), feel free to correct me on this.

And slavery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

Scroll down and you will find many relevant passages from the book of Khorne...errr....I mean the bible, such as:

Freeing Servants
12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. 13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
16 But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,� because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your female servant.

18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because their service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:

Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

*Edit: Sorry, forgot to give source on the Cathars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism

*EditEdit: and something that was mentioned earlier: Communistic contries are Atheistic in the sense that the system itself denies the existance of any gods of any religion, but all of the Communistic states have or have had cults of person worship (Stalin, Mao and Kim Jong-il, for example). However, to say that the massacres of millions that have happend due to these and other people were because of atheism is just out right ridiculous. Religions certainly recived much hostility and agression, but because they were seen as just one of the manipulation systems of the "upper class". Not because a communist didn't belive in beings described by these systems.

[GiddyUp]

[quote="East of Eden"

I'll let William Lane Craig address this canard:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=8973

Basically the Israelites were commanded to drive the Canaanites out of the land, the nation-state was destroyed, not the individuals, hence no genocide.

I'm inclined to agree that a genocide maybe didn't take place, and, as long as I exclude an omnipotent agent from the picture, I wouldn't call it evil. But if an omnipotent being was somehow involved, even as an observer, then why a method that doesn't indicate the presence of a God, but a method that everyone at the time used?

Did God command slavery? That was a normal part of ancient life (not anything like the US Southern version we think of) and was regulated in a humane direction by God. Slavery is not unique to Christianity, what is unique is that Christianity was the force ending it, not secular humanists or Muslims.

Well slavery is of course a contentious issue. Slavery has many forms: the silver mines of Athens were attested to be near certain death sentence, a domestic slave might have been very well kept, and either may have earned their freedom. The slavery in the US slave-states was somewhat different: it was concieved by Christians, perpetuated by Christians, and as you say opposed by Christians, and eventually fought over by Christians. But that remains one the most infamous types of slavery as it was mainly racial, and a slave had no other escape from it other than actual escape or pardon by their master.

But you are right. The Abolitionists were mainly Christians and driven by Christianity. But so were the Slavers in the slave-States driven by Christianity, and in Christian terms they defended the enslavement of Africans.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

I don't have to, there are plenty of Christian churches that will perform the rites of marriage to gay couples,

But still, Jesus said that you are not supposed to be an ordinary man.

Cite?

Matthew 5:38-48 seems to say that it's not enough to do what is expected of you, but that you have to go much further, otherwise, your just like a non-Christian.

He said that any any smchuck can love his neighbour and and give to those who are near him. So, with God you will give as you if you receive, no? If you are with God then you will do the extraordinary: you will give everything you have,

Cite?

The aforementioned portion of the Sermon on the Mount.

you will actually love those that harm you.

And about the needle? In Jesus' time there was no such gate.

Yes there was.

That gate was constructed in the Middle-Ages precisely so that Christians would not need to adhere Jesus' teachings.

Cite?

I will withdraw my claim that crusaders built such a gate.

But I do contest that such a gate ever existed. The earliest mention of one is from the 9th century, but mostly from the 15th. No why exactly would a walled city have an opening that can be traversed by a man? Is there archeological evidence of such practice in other cities? Archeologists have found quite elaborate gate-courtyards built to be impregnable in ancient cities in Judea and in Israel, that have been verified to have been built by the Jews, but no gate comparable to any "eye of needle" has been found.

Can this person you earlier cited find such "Eye of the Needle" from Jerusalem?

[GiddyUp]

Well, I posted without reading the rest of the thread, and I see there's quite a multitude of folks posting to East of Eden, so EE, if you don't see anything that needs addressing in my above post I won't mind.