Physical pain in Hell

[Lux]

For the sake of this discussion, we assume there is a place called Hell, where some people (which people is irrelevant here) go after they die.

Every time I've heard about Hell, it was all about physical pain. Fire, torture, eternal agony. But how can we experience pain after we've died? Our brains cease to work, our neurones die. Our nerves no longer transmit signals. It is observable that a dead person can feel no pain. Otherwise, autopsies would be a terribly inhumane practice.

How can we feel pain, even in Hell, if our brains no longer function?

It has been pointed out to me that what goes to Hell or Heaven are our souls. How is it possible for a soul to feel physical pain?

[Zzyzx]

.

My only question to you would be: If after dying there is absolutely nothing, in what way can that be considered punishment? I wouldn't think of it as punishment, more like "lack of reward". You don't get eternal life, but you don't get anything bad either... you just cease to exist.

I agree -- and ask another question.

How is the described Christian (?) "after death" (nothingness) any different from the "after death" envisioned by a non-believer who expects nothing after the moment of death?

[myth-one.com]

myth-one.com,

Thank you for clarifying.
My only question to you would be: If after dying there is absolutely nothing, in what way can that be considered punishment? I wouldn't think of it as punishment, more like "lack of reward". You don't get eternal life, but you don't get anything bad either... you just cease to exist.

That's correct except that most will have to undergo the death process once again -- thus the "second death." No big deal compared to what "Christianity" has historically and falsely held in store for nonbelievers. In support of the reward received/withheld concept, the Bible describes what awaits believers as a reward:

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

This reward for the saved is everlasting life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Christians aren't born with their rewards. Everlasting life is something we will be given in the future.

The whipping by Satan is surely just a cartoon parody, but the Bible speaks of eternal punishment with fire.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Carefully read this again. I claim that the only item described as eternal in these verses is the smoke. What smoke? The smoke of their torment. What was their torment? The lake of fire. Hell is eternal because it was created for Satan and his rebellious angels. Since they are eternal spirits, their prison must be eternal. Since the fire is eternal, the smoke from the fire is also eternal.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

The fire won't hurt spirits.

Christians (most of them) do not claim that you can feel physical pain in hell. Hell is taught to be a place of solitude from God and others. The christian concept of hell is not burning in fire and being whipped by satan.

Yea, that's comical! Do you also believe the penalty for sinning is "eternal separation from God?" If so, Jesus did not pay your penalty because He is now at the right hand of God the Father.

How is the described Christian (?) "after death" (nothingness) any different from the "after death" envisioned by a non-believer who expects nothing after the moment of death?

There is no difference until the resurrections. The Bible says Christians will be resurrected to everlasting life (spiritual beings) at the Second Coming. Nonbelievers will be resurrected as mortal humans a thousand years afterwards. Whether dead one second or thousands of years, the resurrection of any human will seem to occur immediately after they die -- as they have had no sense of the passage of time.

The scriptures will be unsealed and nonbelievers will be taught the true good news of the gospel. They will face judgment and their life choices will be reviewed. They will then chose to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of sin. If they reject Jesus' offer, they will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and final (and really their first true) death.

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At this point, what the Bible describes as the eternal fate of nonbelievers and what those who expect nothing happens after the moment of death converge again -- for eternity. They are truly dead, knowing and being aware of absolutely nothing for all eternity:

... the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Benoni]

myth-one.com,

Thank you for clarifying.
My only question to you would be: If after dying there is absolutely nothing, in what way can that be considered punishment? I wouldn't think of it as punishment, more like "lack of reward". You don't get eternal life, but you don't get anything bad either... you just cease to exist.

That's correct except that most will have to undergo the death process once again -- thus the "second death." No big deal compared to what "Christianity" has historically and falsely held in store for nonbelievers. In support of the reward received/withheld concept, the Bible describes what awaits believers as a reward:

The second death is actually death from death; we are all living spiritual dea now which is the first death; physical death is nothing more then a literal example of what death is. A dead man cannot see, hear, touch anything; this is double true for a spiritual dead man who is not alive to the realm of God.

Romans 8:1 THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.(1)

2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.

This is the law of sin and death which is not physical death but spiritual death, how can someone freed from the law of sin and death be phyically dead?

3For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [[1] the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [[2] subdued, overcame, [3] deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],(2)

4So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].

5For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and [4] pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and [5] seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that [6] comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot.
8So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].(3)

10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].

11And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.

13For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.

14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.



(Concordant Translation)
Rev 2:11 "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

How can the second death be negative if overcome cannot be hurt by the second death, only thouse who have not gone thought the death process now will be hurt by the second death.

(KJV)
Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death


(Concordant Translation)
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

[Benoni]

This reward for the saved is everlasting life:

The reward for the saved is life of the ages.




aion or aionios
These two words are translated as well as mis-translated thirteen ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.

Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations

The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!

When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.

Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!

Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.

Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).

Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.

[Benoni]

Carefully read this again. I claim that the only item described as eternal in these verses is the smoke. What smoke? The smoke of their torment. What was their torment? The lake of fire. Hell is eternal because it was created for Satan and his rebellious angels. Since they are eternal spirits, their prison must be eternal. Since the fire is eternal, the smoke from the fire is also eternal.

Hell is not in the original language of the Bible; yes I agree Tartarus is a place for Satan and his demons but they are not eternal spirit for they had a beginning. God is truly the only eternal being.

[Benoni]

The fire won't hurt spirits.
winepusher wrote:
Christians (most of them) do not claim that you can feel physical pain in hell. Hell is taught to be a place of solitude from God and others. The christian concept of hell is not burning in fire and being whipped by satan.

Yea, that's comical! Do you also believe the penalty for sinning is "eternal separation from God?" If so, Jesus did not pay your penalty because He is now at the right hand of God the Father.

God’s fire will deal with the evil in man in the Lake of Devine Purging just like it has been doing to believers sense the day of Pentecost; this includes the evil in all men be they Christian or not. God’s fire is corrective, it prunes, chastises and it changes until all carnality; evil will totally purged. The first example of this in the OT was the Fire was first used with the sacrifice of Able. Our flesh must be sacrificed to be in the presence of God. The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God. God is holy; and how many ages it takes; His fire will purify His temple; with in all of us; but that is God’s timing not the 22,000 daughters of Baby lon.

David declared in Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
KJV

So many refuse to believe this because not what scripture declares but what their religion tells them; as well not forgetting the scriptures of doom and gloom. But most of these have been opened and looked at by the light of truth and have been obviously altered by corrupt religious translators.

(41 times the Bible declares:1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

[Benoni]

There is no difference until the resurrections. The Bible says Christians will be resurrected to everlasting life (spiritual beings) at the Second Coming. Nonbelievers will be resurrected as mortal humans a thousand years afterwards. Whether dead one second or thousands of years, the resurrection of any human will seem to occur immediately after they die -- as they have had no sense of the passage of time.

There is no such thing in the Bible as the religious word “second coming’ there are many comings of the Lord not one or two.
I have no idea where you got the rest of this information but both the just and the unjust will be resurrected in God’s timing. The word resurrects means to rise.


Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

[Benoni]

The scriptures will be unsealed and nonbelievers will be taught the true good news of the gospel. They will face judgment and their life choices will be reviewed. They will then chose to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of sin. If they reject Jesus' offer, they will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and final (and really their first true) death.

The scriptures are unsealed NOW. But for those who have ears to hear singular.

Carnal man cannot choose God; God chooses us; never could. . With out God’s spirit quicken us we are as dead as I just mentioned above.

and final (and really their first true) death.
Now you really have me confused for all of a sudden the second death turns into the first death which is the only true death? Please explain?

[Benoni]

The scriptures will be unsealed and nonbelievers will be taught the true good news of the gospel. They will face judgment and their life choices will be reviewed. They will then chose to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of sin. If they reject Jesus' offer, they will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and final (and really their first true) death.

The scriptures are unsealed NOW. But for those who have ears to hear singular.

Carnal man cannot choose God; God chooses us; never could. . With out God’s spirit quicken us we are as dead as I just mentioned above.

and final (and really their first true) death.

Now you really have me confused for all of a sudden the second death turns into the first death which is the only true death? Please explain?

[Benoni]

The scriptures will be unsealed and nonbelievers will be taught the true good news of the gospel. They will face judgment and their life choices will be reviewed. They will then chose to accept or reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of sin. If they reject Jesus' offer, they will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and final (and really their first true) death.

The scriptures are unsealed NOW. But for those who have ears to hear singular.

Carnal man cannot choose God; God chooses us; never could. . With out God’s spirit quicken us we are as dead as I just mentioned above.

and final (and really their first true) death.

Now you really have me confused for all of a sudden the second death turns into the first death which is the only true death? Please explain?