Catholics Are Christians Too!

[KitsuneShoujoAi]

This is by far my favorite topic to debate. Not only does history prove that Catholics are the original Christians, the Bible proves that Catholic do indeed follow Jesus Christ and accept Him as the Savior. You think I'm wrong? Try me.

[nimesh0775]

What then are the teachings of Jesus? Are they only the teachings recorded in the Bible or do they include teachings passed down through the Church or teachings revealed by other means by the spiritual resurrected Christ?

Dear McCulloch,

The Vedic scriptures of Ancient India are the oldest scriptures which claim to be the word of God, so the teachings of Jesus are whatever teachings are found in the Christian denominations that are compatible with the teachings found in the Vedas. We all agree that God is one, so surely the essence of teachings He gave through Jesus should be compatible with the teachings He gave in the Vedas. Otherwise God is contradicting Himself, which doesn't make sense.

Your servant,
Nimesh

[nimesh0775]

Catholics ask Mary to pray for them same as you may ask a friend. We see at the Wedding at Canna that Jesus refuses his mother nothing.

We do not worship idols. We use tools like images and rosaries to help us concentrate on our prayers. It's easier to focus on Jesus when you can see him.

Also let it stand that Catholics were the first Christians. The division started with Martin Luther.

Dear KitsuneShoujoAi,

And this seems very compatible to the Vedic scriptures, in which devotees pray to pure devotees of God (in the Christian tradition, Mary may be seen as a pure devotee) because it is only through their mercy that God will accept us.

Using images as tools does not make sense. Unless the image is given in the scriptures, it is an idol. We should only worship those images of God described in the scriptures. We may also offer prayers to the images of great devotees of God with a view to obtaining their mercy so we can approach the Lord. It should be clear that Jesus is a great pure devotee, not that He is God.

Your servant,
Nimesh

[Wyvern]

What then are the teachings of Jesus? Are they only the teachings recorded in the Bible or do they include teachings passed down through the Church or teachings revealed by other means by the spiritual resurrected Christ?

Dear McCulloch,

The Vedic scriptures of Ancient India are the oldest scriptures which claim to be the word of God, so the teachings of Jesus are whatever teachings are found in the Christian denominations that are compatible with the teachings found in the Vedas. We all agree that God is one, so surely the essence of teachings He gave through Jesus should be compatible with the teachings He gave in the Vedas. Otherwise God is contradicting Himself, which doesn't make sense.

Your servant,
Nimesh

The vedas are the holy books for hinduism and as such they are not the word of god but gods. Hinduism is a polytheistic belief system as opposed to the monotheism demonstrated by christianity.

[KitsuneShoujoAi]

Catholics ask Mary to pray for them same as you may ask a friend. We see at the Wedding at Canna that Jesus refuses his mother nothing.

We do not worship idols. We use tools like images and rosaries to help us concentrate on our prayers. It's easier to focus on Jesus when you can see him.

Also let it stand that Catholics were the first Christians. The division started with Martin Luther.

Dear KitsuneShoujoAi,

And this seems very compatible to the Vedic scriptures, in which devotees pray to pure devotees of God (in the Christian tradition, Mary may be seen as a pure devotee) because it is only through their mercy that God will accept us.

Using images as tools does not make sense. Unless the image is given in the scriptures, it is an idol. We should only worship those images of God described in the scriptures. We may also offer prayers to the images of great devotees of God with a view to obtaining their mercy so we can approach the Lord. It should be clear that Jesus is a great pure devotee, not that He is God.

Your servant,
Nimesh

Let's take a look at some of the common Catholic "idols."

Crucifixes: Crucifixes can be used in two ways. One, the same way that Protestants use crosses to identify themselves to the world as a follower of Christ. The second is as a reminder of how Jesus suffered and died for us.

Icons: Icons are images made of Jesus, Mary, saints, and angels. Google the making of an icon. The very process is a prayer and the icon is a glorification of God.

Rosary: The rosary is just another tool reminding us to pray and aiding us. The rosary consist of ten set of ten beads and five larger beads. Any prayer said repeatedly in a large number has great power, and using a rosary is easier than counting on fingers.

To your final point, that Jesus is a "pure devotee" instead of God. That very statement denies you Christianity, as Christianity is the following of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

[orthodox]

Catholics are not the original Christians.

Catholics broke away from the Orthodox in 1054AD.

Rather than keeping the rules of bishops and a council of bishops, the West held the Bishop of Rome as above all other bishops on issues of theology. They have added dogma such as purgatory, immaculate conception, filioque etc

The Catholic church then backed the invasions and forced conversion from orthodox countries. I.E. Norman Invasion of 1066AD bringing William the Conqueror and the catholic faith to Orthodox England ( 60% of the population died in the massacres )

Catholics used the crusades to spread its faith and power. Even in the 4th crusade invading the Capital of the Orthodox faith, Constantinople and sacking it.

In every faith there are perversions and people who do not hold it to heart. There are truth seekers and people with good virtues everywhere. There are good, humble Catholics but you are not in line with the traditional christian beliefs. You have moved away from it.

The Orthodox hold the traditional beliefs of the church and is the original church.

[micatala]

I don't think that you can adequately debate whether Roman Catholics are Christians unless you first define Christianity. And the definition has to be a theological one rather than an anthropological one. Each Christian denomination has their own definition of what defines any individual as being a Christian. Which one is valid and true?

Words that describe large groups of people are often nebulously defined. I think this is unavoidable, partly because of the inherent ambiguity of language. Consider the following terms, for example:

Liberal
Conservative
Republican
Good (as in, "He is a good person")
Patriotic
Atheist

For example, a person might consider himself good, even though others do not. Is he good or not?

We have had debates on this forum on the definition of atheist. I would certainly agree this term is less ambiguous than Christian. A person who states "I do not believe in God" is typically considered an atheist. On the other hand, what if such a person believes in other supernatural forces? What if they make no public categorical profession, but when asked about individual religions say "I don't really believe in that?"

Now, maybe atheist is not a good example but let's consider Patriotic. For many, this term brings to mind flag-waving citizens with their hands over their heart singing a national anthem or making a pledge. On the other hand, what if someone does not show any such overt signs of patriotism? Are they automatically not patriotic? What if someone is a pacifist and an staunch opponent of the government, and yet is willing to make great sacrifices on behalf of their country or its citizens? Can one be a patriot but still believe in international cooperation, or even international government?

Let's go on to Republican. Restricted to the U.S., we could make a hard and fast definition based on voter registration. On the other hand, there are 20 states that do not track party affiliation. In these states, would we simply go by self-identification? What about voters who identify as "gray" (I more Republican than Democrat)? What about some Republicans who label others as RINOS (Repubican in Name Only)?



My view, with respect to the term Christian, is to go by people's own self-identification. The few cases where this would be absurd are not worth splitting hairs about (e.g. a person who says they are a Christian by thinks Jesus was an alien in human form).

[Cathar1950]

I read it wrong, I thought it read; Catholics are Christian Tools".

Of course Catholics, as a denomination I can't make any determination on any individual Christian or Catholic. The Greek Orthodox are also Christians. I see no reason not to include Protestants, Anglicans, Calvinist, Cathars, Some Gnostics, Arians, Marcionians, Anabaptists and many heretics any heresies; they are all Christians. Of course I think we can include Ebonites and JW or any other cults that claim Jesus in any way as any kind of Messiah or Christ or teacher or prophet (this might include Muslims too) or possible anyone that believed in the kingdom of God with God as king or the anointed or Cosmic Christ or Messiahs as Christianity is Christianities and has many rivers creeks. streams and shores.

[nimesh0775]

The vedas are the holy books for hinduism and as such they are not the word of god but gods. Hinduism is a polytheistic belief system as opposed to the monotheism demonstrated by christianity.

Dear Wyvern,

If the Vedas are the holy books of Hinduism, then we should refer to the Vedas to find out whether they give a polytheistic or monotheistic system. In the Vedas it is stated that there is one Lord who is eternal and fully conscious and He is maintaining all the other innumerable eternal and fully conscious living beings. In other words the reference is to one God, not many gods.

Your servant,
Nimesh[/u]

[nimesh0775]

Let's take a look at some of the common Catholic "idols."

Crucifixes: Crucifixes can be used in two ways. One, the same way that Protestants use crosses to identify themselves to the world as a follower of Christ. The second is as a reminder of how Jesus suffered and died for us.

Icons: Icons are images made of Jesus, Mary, saints, and angels. Google the making of an icon. The very process is a prayer and the icon is a glorification of God.

Rosary: The rosary is just another tool reminding us to pray and aiding us. The rosary consist of ten set of ten beads and five larger beads. Any prayer said repeatedly in a large number has great power, and using a rosary is easier than counting on fingers.

To your final point, that Jesus is a "pure devotee" instead of God. That very statement denies you Christianity, as Christianity is the following of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Dear KitsuneShoujoAi,

Thank you for clarifying regarding the so-called "idol worship" in Catholicism.

I read in the dictionary that Christian means one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ. There it doesn't mention anything about believing that Jesus is God. Jesus constantly refers to the Lord in third person, as the Father, and he refers to himself as the Son of God, therefore it is clear to me according to his teachings that he is not God, but the Son of God.

Your servant,
Nimesh

[mtbike61384]

I do believe that Catholics are christians as by the definition. But how can you explain why they changed the day of worship from the seventh day to the first day without proof from the bible for the change? Here is a great site with quotes straight from Catholic books and writings that the church changed the day because they thought they had the power to do so even withought proof in scripture.

http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html