On Determining the Litmus for Entrance into the Kindgom

Vanguard · Post by **Vanguard** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:29 am

This OP is a retread of what I had opened up with in the Holy Huddle a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, it did not garner much interest and so I thought it better to put it into more open waters of non-theists participation to see if we can generate more dialogue.

Vanguard wrote:I've struggled with this for some time now. I have made commentary on different threads about my beliefs and recognize that they divurge from the more common, accepted Christian stance (and perhaps from that of my own LDS faith) about how salvation is gained.

For starters, I would like to flesh this out with those who have any type of opinion on the matter. Specifically, on what should a Christian base his belief regards to who is "saved" and who is not?

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:01 am

Vanguard,

Ultimately, all will be reconciled to God (Col 1:20). For now, those who declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in their hearts that God rouses him from among the dead, are saved (Rom 10:9).

Paul

Vanguard · Post by **Vanguard** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:54 pm

Paul2, thank you for responding. I would like to follow up with a few questions if you'll indulge the exchange. Before going forward I should say that when I use the term "saved" I mean a state that would find any man in the presence of God after this life. This may become important later on.

Paul2 wrote:Ultimately, all will be reconciled to God (Col 1:20). For now, those who declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in their hearts that God rouses him from among the dead, are saved (Rom 10:9).

Colossian 1:20 says,

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

When this scripture uses the term, "reconciled" do you take that to mean that all mankind will receive salvation's reward (as I have used the term)? Is there another way to interpret this term that would not include this salvation we speak of?

Romans 10:9 says,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This scripture would seem to suggest that merely professing belief in the Savior and believing in one's heart will save a man as I have defined it. Do you share this same belief?

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:03 pm

Vanguard,

You wrote:Before going forward I should say that when I use the term "saved" I mean a state that would find any man in the presence of God after this life.

I'm assuming in this post that by "after this life" you mean immediately after death.

You wrote:When this scripture uses the term, "reconciled" do you take that to mean that all mankind will receive salvation's reward (as I have used the term)?

No. No one will experience God's presence immediately after death, unless they happen to die immediately prior to a resurrection event.

Salvation is a gift not a reward.

You wrote:Is there another way to interpret this term that would not include this salvation we speak of?

Yes. To live in harmony with God for ever. What comes before this will vary according to the individual.

You wrote:This scripture would seem to suggest that merely professing belief in the Savior and believing in one's heart will save a man as I have defined it. Do you share this same belief?

God's presence can only be experienced after resurrection. The dead have no life and have no consciousness.

Paul

Vanguard · Post by **Vanguard** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:59 pm

Paul2 wrote:
Vanguard wrote:Before going forward I should say that when I use the term "saved" I mean a state that would find any man in the presence of God after this life.
I'm assuming in this post that by "after this life" you mean immediately after death.

No, I am referring to the final destination. I do not contemplate at this point what happens immediately after.

Paul2 wrote:
Vanguard wrote:When this scripture uses the term, "reconciled" do you take that to mean that all mankind will receive salvation's reward (as I have used the term)?
No. No one will experience God's presence immediately after death, unless they happen to die immediately prior to a resurrection event.

Salvation is a gift not a reward.

See my response above.

Paul2 wrote:
Vanguard wrote:Is there another way to interpret this term that would not include this salvation we speak of?
Yes. To live in harmony with God for ever. What comes before this will vary according to the individual.

I meant initially to refer to life in harmony with God forever (i.e., my definition of salvation). With this clarification in mind. I would like to ask the same questions again. I earlier posted -

Colossian 1:20 says,
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

When this scripture uses the term, "reconciled" do you take that to mean that all mankind will receive salvation's reward (as I have used the term)? Is there another way to interpret this term that would not include this salvation we speak of?

Romans 10:9 says,
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This scripture would seem to suggest that merely professing belief in the Savior and believing in one's heart will save a man as I have defined it. Do you share this same belief?

Peace.

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Vanguard,

You wrote:I meant initially to refer to life in harmony with God forever (i.e., my definition of salvation). With this clarification in mind. I would like to ask the same questions again. I earlier posted -

You wrote:When this scripture uses the term, "reconciled" do you take that to mean that all mankind will receive salvation's reward (as I have used the term)?

Yes. To live in harmony with God for ever is the ultimate outcome for all. Salvation is a gift not a reward.

You wrote:Is there another way to interpret this term that would not include this salvation we speak of?

I don't believe so.

You wrote:This scripture would seem to suggest that merely professing belief in the Savior and believing in one's heart will save a man as I have defined it. Do you share this same belief?

I share this belief, if you mean that a man becomes reconciled to God who declares that Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God roused Jesus from among the dead.

Paul

tlong · Post by **tlong** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:53 pm

16"(U)He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

38Peter said to them, "(AY)Repent, and each of you be (AZ)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [d](BE)souls.
What were they added to?

47praising God and (BN)having favor with all the people And the Lord (BO)was adding to their number day by day (BP)those who were being saved.
What did the people do to be added to their number? Was it being baptized?

21(AT)Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--(AU)not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a (AV)good conscience--through (AW)the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:18 pm

tlong,

Water baptism is irrelevant today. Jews and proselytes were baptized to qualify to partake in the earthly kingdom of the Messiah when it comes to pass. This kingdom will be Heaven's kingdom on earth. Water baptism will be relevant again in the future.

You wrote:What were they added to?

They were added to saved Israel.

You wrote:What did the people do to be added to their number? Was it being baptized?

Yes. These were added through water baptism to saved Israel.

Peter was writing to Jews in the Diaspora in 1 Peter 3:21. 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia, (CLV)

Paul

tlong · Post by **tlong** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:08 am

Paul2 wrote:tlong,

Water baptism is irrelevant today. Jews and proselytes were baptized to qualify to partake in the earthly kingdom of the Messiah when it comes to pass. This kingdom will be Heaven's kingdom on earth. Water baptism will be relevant again in the future.

You wrote:What were they added to?
They were added to saved Israel.

You wrote:What did the people do to be added to their number? Was it being baptized?
Yes. These were added through water baptism to saved Israel.

Peter was writing to Jews in the Diaspora in 1 Peter 3:21. 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia, (CLV)

Paul

Where does it say they were added to saved Isreal? Are we not talking about being added to the kingdom which in fact is the Church?

Matthew 3:2
" Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike[ when the kingdom was preached]

13For He rescued us from the (D)domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of (E)His beloved Son,

13For He rescued us from the (D)domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of (E)His beloved Son,

The kingdom has come and if it is not his church, then what is it?

Paul2 · Post by **Paul2** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:28 pm

tlong,

You wrote:Where does it say they were added to saved Isreal? Are we not talking about being added to the kingdom which in fact is the Church?

It doesn't say saved Israel. They were added to the ecclesia in Jerusalem made up of the saved in Israel. They were Jews and proselytes who kept the law of Moses and who looked for salvation into God's kingdom on earth.

Today, we don't approach God through the nation of Israel. We don't look for salvation into life in the terrestrial domain like Peter did. We will live mostly in the celestial domain. The kingdom of God will exist in both of these domains as one kingdom.

You wrote:Matthew 3:2
" Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

The kingdom of heaven on earth was near and would have come about, if Israel had complied with God's instruction to hear his son, Jesus. Israel did not comply and consequently they were ejected from the Land.

You wrote:Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This occurred when some of Jesus' disciples saw a vision of the future when they were with Jesus on a mountain. The account of this immediately follows the reference you gave.

You wrote:Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike[ when the kingdom was preached]

The Samaritans were baptized during the period in which the gospel of the kingdom (terrestrial) was still being preached.

You wrote:The kingdom has come and if it is not his church, then what is it?

God's kingdom is wherever the authority of his son is recognised. Eventually Jesus' authority will be universally established when all God's enemies are reconciled to Him through the blood of the cross of Christ. (Col 1:20)

Paul