On Determining the Litmus for Entrance into the Kindgom

[Vanguard]

This OP is a retread of what I had opened up with in the Holy Huddle a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, it did not garner much interest and so I thought it better to put it into more open waters of non-theists participation to see if we can generate more dialogue.

I've struggled with this for some time now. I have made commentary on different threads about my beliefs and recognize that they divurge from the more common, accepted Christian stance (and perhaps from that of my own LDS faith) about how salvation is gained.

For starters, I would like to flesh this out with those who have any type of opinion on the matter. Specifically, on what should a Christian base his belief regards to who is "saved" and who is not?

[dunsapy]

Why not?

That was done away with after the remaining ones from Jesus time. There are 2 reasons that the curing was done then . It was to show that Jesus could do it, that it just wasn't words, and to show the people that Jesus was the one that was from God. These cure were not a permanent. There purpose was only to show that it could be done and the Jesus was God's son.

Don't marry, give all your possessions to the poor, take no thought for tomorrow, provoke hypocritical religious leaders into making you a martyr, ...

There were many family's in the congregations at that time. Jesus was perfect, he could have had perfect children, his purpose was to die for all mankind. Non of those we can fulfill.

dunsapy wrote:

In the congregations that he set up , no one got paid, everything was as a volunteer.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (New American Standard Bible) wrote:
The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

The ones that got wages was the laborer.
It said they got double honor. Respect for taking the lead.
Jesus set up the congregations, with no priestly class or clergy class. It wasn't till a few hundred years after Jesus died that the idea, a special leadership, that would get paid, in Christianity, got started. Jesus angrily went after the Pharisees , about their, money making schemes. The bible also say you received free give free.

[Vanguard]

Do you mean we must approximate in some way what the Savior did or do you literally mean we must do everything?

Jesus was perfect. WE were to follow him as close as we can. Jesus was able to cure people , we can't do that. But he did show us how to live. How to deal with other people, he started the congratulations and installed the preaching work, which was the main goal. In the congregations that he set up , no one got paid, everything was as a volunteer. He said you are in the world bet be no part of it. What that means is we don't isolate ourselves, but we take no part in the political affairs like voting or supporting governments. We do not get involved with the wars of man. etc.
Many other things but this is a start.

So it's not as much the case that we should do what Jesus did but rather we should try to approximate that ideal as best we can? If we do this, despite falling short of the mark He set, are we to be saved then?

[dunsapy]

So it's not as much the case that we should do what Jesus did but rather we should try to approximate that ideal as best we can? If we do this, despite falling short of the mark He set, are we to be saved then?

Jesus came and set things up. But he was a perfect man and God's Son. So we also have to,look at what faithful men at that time did. For instance Paul, and the other disciples also the congregations.

The main thing Jesus said to spread the word, and talk to people about Gods kingdom. Everyone was to take part, in this. ( the bible is really about God's government.)

Also the fact that Jesus was neutral as to governments. He did not support any worldly governments. He opened this work of preaching to the world.

What he started was something that did not involve the established religious system at that time, which was the priestly class, the Pharisees.

Another thing that was interesting at that time, was that what Jesus started, was not popular. Actually, the Jews ended up killing Jesus , and some of his followers.

It is many things like this, I have just mentioned a few.

[McCulloch]

That [Jesus' followers doing miracles] was done away with after the remaining ones from Jesus time.

OK, that makes sense. Just show me where in the Bible that is taught and we're done.

There are 2 reasons that the curing was done then. It was to show that Jesus could do it, that it just wasn't words, and to show the people that Jesus was the one that was from God. These cure were not a permanent. There purpose was only to show that it could be done and the Jesus was God's son.

Maybe you missed reading the quote I provided. It was not Jesus who was said to be doing the miracles, but Jesus' followers. Please show were in the scriptures that is says that any of the miracle cures were not permanent.

Regarding Jesus' example:

Don't marry, give all your possessions to the poor, take no thought for tomorrow, provoke hypocritical religious leaders into making you a martyr, ...

There were many family's in the congregations at that time. Jesus was perfect, he could have had perfect children, his purpose was to die for all mankind. Non of those we can fulfill.

I am just asking, if Jesus set an example for others to follow, why is it that most of those who claim to be his followers do not follow his examples. I did not mean to open up the can of worms about Jesus' marriageability. How many Christians give all that they have to the poor? Did you? Do you have insurance, savings, a retirement fund? How few Christians follow Jesus' example!

In the congregations that he set up , no one got paid, everything was as a volunteer.

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

The ones that got wages was the laborer.

Read it in context. Labor is work. The work being spoken of in this passage is the work of preaching and teaching. Paul is very clearly teaching that the elders who work hard at preaching and teaching are worthy of their wages. If you cannot understand it when the epistle writer is trying to make a point, how is it that we should trust you to interpret the more difficult passages.

Jesus set up the congregations, with no priestly class or clergy class.

Agreed. Paying someone for the work that they do does not imply a priestly class or clergy. There is no evidence that the early church used the titles of Father, Reverend or other such blasphemies.

It wasn't till a few hundred years after Jesus died that the idea, a special leadership, that would get paid, in Christianity, got started. Jesus angrily went after the Pharisees , about their, money making schemes. The bible also say you received free give free.

There is a big difference between being supported by the community of the faithful for doing specific work and fleecing the gullible and making oneself rich. A great many Christian preachers and elders are somewhat meagerly supported by their congregations for the time that they spend in teaching and preaching. A few, like the Pharisees rightly criticized by Jesus, have used a distorted form of religion as a personal money making scheme.

[dunsapy]

John 12:9 Therefore a great crowd of the Jews got to know he was there, and they came, not on account of Jesus only, but also to see Laz′a‧rus, whom he raised up from the dead. 10 The chief priests now took counsel to kill Laz′a‧rus also, 11 because on account of him many of the Jews were going there and putting faith in Jesus.

This was showing that people put trust in Jesus because he could raise the dead. This was a temporary cure, because Lazarus would still be alive today.

So then if these were not permanent what was the point It proved that the Christian message really was from God, was “the truth.� The apostle Paul showed this when he wrote: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works.� (Heb. 2:3, 4) Hence, the important thing was the message of salvation, not the miracles. The miracles merely proved the truth of the message. Once that and the fact that God was using the Christian congregation had been established, miraculous gifts of the spirit, including healing, were no longer needed.—1 Cor. 12:27–13:8.

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even calling on Jesus’ name would not prove that a person was a true Christian. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus foretold that he would reject certain ones who claimed: “Lord, Lord, did we not . . . work many miracles in your name?� For what reason would Jesus reject these miracle workers? He answers: “I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!� Evidently, some would work miracles in Christ’s name, but in fact they would be impostors.—Matthew 7:22, 23,

John 13:34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.

Doing the miracles, speaking in tongues, prophesying, were done away with. Because it was a temporary thing to show that Jesus was really from God and that he could these things.

[Vanguard]

So it's not as much the case that we should do what Jesus did but rather we should try to approximate that ideal as best we can? If we do this, despite falling short of the mark He set, are we to be saved then?

Jesus came and set things up. But he was a perfect man and God's Son. So we also have to,look at what faithful men at that time did. For instance Paul, and the other disciples also the congregations.

The main thing Jesus said to spread the word, and talk to people about Gods kingdom. Everyone was to take part, in this. ( the bible is really about God's government.)

Also the fact that Jesus was neutral as to governments. He did not support any worldly governments. He opened this work of preaching to the world.

What he started was something that did not involve the established religious system at that time, which was the priestly class, the Pharisees.

Another thing that was interesting at that time, was that what Jesus started, was not popular. Actually, the Jews ended up killing Jesus , and some of his followers.

It is many things like this, I have just mentioned a few.

That is all well and good as I would probably agree with much of what you report. But what is the litmus for entrance? Certainly you wouldn't say spreading the word or not voting is it? And from your more recent posts it does not sound like we are expected to be just as Jesus was as He was the only perfect man and we all fall short of the mark. Are we all expected to do the exact same thing? Is there a way for a 3rd party observer to know whether someone is saved?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[dunsapy]

That is all well and good as I would probably agree with much of what you report. But what is the litmus for entrance? Certainly you wouldn't say spreading the word or not voting is it? And from your more recent posts it does not sound like we are expected to be just as Jesus was as He was the only perfect man and we all fall short of the mark. Are we all expected to do the exact same thing? Is there a way for a 3rd party observer to know whether someone is saved?

Yes it is. Spreading the word is a requirement. Also being neutral is also a requirement. The bible's theme is sovereignty . Who has the right to rule, God or Satan. You can not support both governments at the same time. One is Satan's and the other is God's.

As for the preaching work
Mathew 24: 9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
The part that I highlighted says a few things. First of all this is a prophecy, so this has to happen before the end of this system comes. Also it mentions good news about the kingdom ( this is God's government) will be preached in all the earth. This is what Gods people will do before the end, it is a systematic preaching in all countries of the earth, with this one message. When this is done , the end will come. So you have to be part of this, to be saved. ( you have to be on the 'Ark' )
There is no 3rd party.

[dunsapy]

Matthew 28:16 However, the eleven disciples went into Gal′i‧lee to the mountain where Jesus had arranged for them, 17 and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.�

This goes with my previous post .

[Vanguard]

That is all well and good as I would probably agree with much of what you report. But what is the litmus for entrance? Certainly you wouldn't say spreading the word or not voting is it? And from your more recent posts it does not sound like we are expected to be just as Jesus was as He was the only perfect man and we all fall short of the mark. Are we all expected to do the exact same thing? Is there a way for a 3rd party observer to know whether someone is saved?

Yes it is. Spreading the word is a requirement. Also being neutral is also a requirement. The bible's theme is sovereignty . Who has the right to rule, God or Satan. You can not support both governments at the same time. One is Satan's and the other is God's.

As for the preaching work
Mathew 24: 9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
The part that I highlighted says a few things. First of all this is a prophecy, so this has to happen before the end of this system comes. Also it mentions good news about the kingdom ( this is God's government) will be preached in all the earth. This is what Gods people will do before the end, it is a systematic preaching in all countries of the earth, with this one message. When this is done , the end will come. So you have to be part of this, to be saved. ( you have to be on the 'Ark' )
There is no 3rd party.

Let's try another angle on this. I think the point we are driving at regards to the varied expectations becomes moot. We are both in agreement there are expectations. I guess the more important question IMO becomes whether or not we can conclude things about another's salvation based on what we see the other to be doing. Can we conclude such things?

[dunsapy]

Let's try another angle on this. I think the point we are driving at regards to the varied expectations becomes moot. We are both in agreement there are expectations. I guess the more important question IMO becomes whether or not we can conclude things about another's salvation based on what we see the other to be doing. Can we conclude such things?

Here are a couple of scriptures that mention this.

Titus 3:. 10 As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11 knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.

Matthew 18:17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.


1 Timothy 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. 20 Hy‧me‧nae′us and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.

1 Corinthians 5: 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.�