Are Christian rights threatened by secularism?

[McCulloch]

Also, just so long you don't impose your unbelief on my religious rights!
And I do have religious rights!
And I am quite able to defend them!

Question for debate: Which rights of Christians are being threatened in western democracies?

[Cephus]

It is also increasingly difficult for certain Christians to work in public jobs. As evidenced by the marriage registrar sacked for refusing gay marriages.

No, it's not at all difficult for Christians to work in public jobs, it's only difficult for those who cannot separate their religious life from their work life. If you're that far over the top, you need professional help. The simple fact is that Christians work in those capacities every day without a problem and if they find that they cannot for whatever moral reasons, they should find another job.

Life isn't all that hard when you think about it.

[Furrowed Brow]

It is also increasingly difficult for certain Christians to work in public jobs. As evidenced by the marriage registrar sacked for refusing gay marriages.

No, it's not at all difficult for Christians to work in public jobs, it's only difficult for those who cannot separate their religious life from their work life. If you're that far over the top, you need professional help. The simple fact is that Christians work in those capacities every day without a problem and if they find that they cannot for whatever moral reasons, they should find another job.

Life isn't all that hard when you think about it.

It was those certain "over the top" Christians I was referring to. My point is that this kind of Christian is systematically disapproved of by the state (here in the UK) when it comes to questions of gender and sexuality. As an atheist I expect to go to work, talk about my attitudes and beliefs when such discussions arise, and not find my self facing a disciplinary. That is not the case for some Christians. Their beliefs are slowly being outlawed.

[Furrowed Brow]

Ah, scare mongering.

Not sure if you get where I'm coming from steen. I'm not offering any defence or beating the drum for homophobia or Christian fundamentalism. Just observing the social movement and power struggle as I see it. Well hardly a struggle. More the death throws one one idealogy being strangled by another.

Are kids being removed from homes of racists, f.ex?

If you send your kids to school here in the UK after emersing your kids in a racist culture, whereby they will not sit with or interact with coloured children. And you don't back down. You can expect your kids to be removed from school and a visit from the social services.

True I know of no kinds being snatched by the government. And maybe the breaks will get applied before we ever get there. But frankly I see no breaks being applied at present.

And just to be clear steen I'm not saying there should not be intervention. Yes the fall of bigotry should be celebrated.

[steen]

Are kids being removed from homes of racists, f.ex?

If you send your kids to school here in the UK after emersing your kids in a racist culture, whereby they will not sit with or interact with coloured children. And you don't back down. You can expect your kids to be removed from school and a visit from the social services.

True I know of no kinds being snatched by the government. And maybe the breaks will get applied before we ever get there. But frankly I see no breaks being applied at present.

Lots of similar concerns have been raised in the past and kids are not yet removed from homes.

And just to be clear steen I'm not saying there should not be intervention. Yes the fall of bigotry should be celebrated.

Indeed. But as of yet, I have not seen anything that intrudes into family belief systems, only on that belief system's impact onto others.

[Cephus]

My point is that this kind of Christian is systematically disapproved of by the state (here in the UK) when it comes to questions of gender and sexuality. As an atheist I expect to go to work, talk about my attitudes and beliefs when such discussions arise, and not find my self facing a disciplinary. That is not the case for some Christians. Their beliefs are slowly being outlawed.

Well sure, they're fanatics, they should be disapproved of! There's a difference between being able to talk about your beliefs and pounding people over the head with them. If you started insulting others because they didn't conform to the kind of narrow range of acceptability that your religion demanded, you'd get disciplined too, and you should be. I'm sure racist fanatics and sexist fanatics and *ALL* fanatics get the same treatment and they deserve it.

[Furrowed Brow]

My point is that this kind of Christian is systematically disapproved of by the state (here in the UK) when it comes to questions of gender and sexuality. As an atheist I expect to go to work, talk about my attitudes and beliefs when such discussions arise, and not find my self facing a disciplinary. That is not the case for some Christians. Their beliefs are slowly being outlawed.

Well sure, they're fanatics, they should be disapproved of! There's a difference between being able to talk about your beliefs and pounding people over the head with them. If you started insulting others because they didn't conform to the kind of narrow range of acceptability that your religion demanded, you'd get disciplined too, and you should be. I'm sure racist fanatics and sexist fanatics and *ALL* fanatics get the same treatment and they deserve it.

Ah. I'm trying not to make a value judgment. Just make the observation that some religious beliefs have over the last few years become legislated against, and that legislation has been fully absorbed into all forms of public life and employment. Lev. 18:22 is against the law. You just can't say it without fear of losing your occupation and facing prosecution.

Are their editions of the bible that edited out the anti gay stuff? I'm waiting to see if anyone challenges in court the sale of the bible which includes Lev 18:22. As far as I can see this breaks the law. Do we have any lawyers on board?

[realthinker]

Here in the UK I'd say these three are being eroded if not now gone.

The right not to reject same sex relationships.

You have the right to object, but not to impede. You're not the authority.

The right to wear religious symbolic artefacts e.g. crucifix.

In the US, this is clearly a first amendment issue, and probably one that's been raked over any number of times from anyone who's liked to wear something objectionable. This is not a Christianity issue.

The right to Sunday off work.

Christians have every right to be under-employed based on their beliefs, if they cannot live up to the employment requirements.

For example the law says you do not have to work Sundays, but in practice this freedom is being eroded. Right now my union is in pay talks with the bosses. It looks like we are about to sell our right not to work Sundays.

So, you're free to quit the union and find another job or career. Beyond that, and a bit off topic, if you truly have no other options, is God such a hard @ss that he's going to prefer your slow starvation to working on Sunday?

If you stand up in public and say, or write in any publication that homosexuality is wrong, if the police receive a complaint it is likely you will receive a visit from them and a rebuke.

Do you have any citations for this idea? I think you're manufacturing this consequence.

[Cephus]

Ah. I'm trying not to make a value judgment. Just make the observation that some religious beliefs have over the last few years become legislated against, and that legislation has been fully absorbed into all forms of public life and employment. Lev. 18:22 is against the law. You just can't say it without fear of losing your occupation and facing prosecution.

But the reality is, there are things we need to be making value judgements about for the good of society. People who hold racist views for religious reasons shouldn't be able to claim religious persecution that they can't have slaves. People who take "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" seriously, or who think that they can take unruly children to the edge of town and stone them, simply have no leg to stand on when they claim religious discrimination. These are not illegal because they are Christian, but because no rational, reasonable person should believe them and because they are detrimental to society.

[Furrowed Brow]

Do you have any citations for this idea? I think you're manufacturing this consequence

Here’s a start.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 15,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 15,00.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti ... article.do
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 613344.ece

To be true these are a mixed bag. But they should give some indicating to the temperature of the water over here. I am be quite serious, and do not intend to mislead. At the moment our police are very keen to press their gay credentials. Some forces more that others. But if anyone preaches or write in public Lev 18:22 or the like, they stand a fair chance of being arrested or receiving a formal rebuke. Though in all likelihood no charges will get pressed. The climate here in the UK is very much against old testament gender morality.

Christians have every right to be under-employed based on their beliefs, if they cannot live up to the employment requirements.

But the point is that twenty five years ago Sunday trading was mostly against the law. Now it is our biggest trading day. This is a massive economic, social and legal shift. There is still a right not to work Sundays but this too is being eroded by the economic and social reality.

But the reality is, there are things we need to be making value judgements about for the good of society. People who hold racist views for religious reasons shouldn't be able to claim religious persecution that they can't have slaves. People who take "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" seriously, or who think that they can take unruly children to the edge of town and stone them, simply have no leg to stand on when they claim religious discrimination. These are not illegal because they are Christian, but because no rational, reasonable person should believe them and because they are detrimental to society.

Yes. But the OP was asking whether Christians rights are threatened by Western democracy. My value judgment is yes the world is better off without the gender and slave ideology of old testament Christianity. But that is not the OP.

[Cephus]

Yes. But the OP was asking whether Christians rights are threatened by Western democracy. My value judgment is yes the world is better off without the gender and slave ideology of old testament Christianity. But that is not the OP.

There's a difference between what would actually be a right and what Christians wish they had rights to do. There is no right to have slaves in the United States, therefore anyone of any religion who claims that they do have such rights are just wrong. Same as Christians who think they deserve special treatment because of their religion while denying those rights to other religious groups. Most of the so-called "Christian rights" I've seen are just wishful thinking in the first place and don't really exist.