The angel of the LORD

[placebofactor]

As we study the Scripture, we find the often-recurring phrase, “The angel of the LORD.” In almost all cases, this messenger is regarded as Deity yet distinguished from the Father. The angel of the LORD is the pre-incarnate Logos (the Word), his appearance in angelic or human form foreshadows his coming in the flesh.

Genesis 16:7-14, “The angel of the LORD found her (Hagar) by a fountain of water in the wilderness,” In verse 9, he tells Hagar to return to Sarai, and to submit to her. Verse 10, He tells her, “I will multiply your seed exceedingly, verse 11, He tells Hagar she’s with child and will bear a son, and that she is to call his name Ishmael; Verse 13, “She called the name of the LORD (Jehovah) that spoke unto her, thou God (the mighty one) sees me.”

Genesis 22:11, “The angel of the LORD called out to him (Abraham) out of heaven,” Verse 12, he said, “Lay not your hand upon the lad (Isaac). Verse 14, “Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (meaning, the LORD will provide).

Verse 15-16, "The angel of the LORD called out unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, by myself have I sworn, said the LORD.”

Genesis 31:11, “The angel of God (Elohim) spoke unto me (Jacob) in a dream.” In verse 13, The angel of God (Elohim) then said, “I am the God (mighty one) of Bethel,”

Numbers 22:22-35, “The angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him (Balaam.) Verse25, “When the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall,” Verse 28, “And the LORD (Jehovah) opened the mouth of the ass,” Verse 31, “Then the LORD (Jehovah) opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD (Jehovah) standing in the way, and his sword drawn."

Judges 6:11-23, “The angel of the LORD appeared unto him (Gideon).” Because Gideon doubted the one speaking to him, he called him Adoni or Lord. Verse 14, “And the LORD (Jehovah) looked upon him,” Verse 23, “The LORD (Jehovah) said to him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shall not die.” Verse 25, “Gideon built an altar unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom:”

Judges 13: The angel of the LORD appears to the wife of Manoah, the father of Samson. She runs and tells her husband, “A man of God came unto me, his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God. Verse 8, “Manoah intreated the LORD (he calls him Adonay) a name for God only. In verse 17, Manoah asks the angel of the LORD, “What is your mane,” The LORD answered “My name is secret (meaning Wonderful). Wonderful is what Isaiah 9:6, calls the Son of God, his name shall be called “Wonderful.” Verse 22, “Manoah said unto his wife, we shall surely die, because we have seen God (Jehovah).”

[Bible_Student]

...I hope you'll forgive me...

I hope you will forgive ME, but ...

Let's say that for an atheist to understand who God is for monotheists, or what gods are for those who believe that other gods may exist (regardless of whether one of them is believed to be superior to all the others), I suppose he would have to go from being an atheist to an agnostic.

Let's say that an atheist is debating the possible existence of beings superior to humans in some dimension or universe other than ours... How would he imagine those beings? Could there exist among all of them One who is superior to all the others, and who has been responsible for the existence of all of them?

Wouldn't an agnostic, who, although he doesn't know the truth about the matter, at least considers the possibility that such beings really exist, be much closer to understanding the matter?

I don't think that someone who is not capable of imagining that scenario can understand through speculation, what is inside the minds of believers; Much less could he teach a believer anything about monotheism, henotheism or polytheism... What can a simple cook teach a surgeon about anatomy?

[Difflugia]

...I hope you'll forgive me...

I hope you will forgive ME, but ...

Let's say that for an atheist to understand who God is for monotheists, or what gods are for those who believe that other gods may exist (regardless of whether one of them is believed to be superior to all the others), I suppose he would have to go from being an atheist to an agnostic.

Why would that be true?

Let's say that an atheist is debating the possible existence of beings superior to humans in some dimension or universe other than ours... How would he imagine those beings?

I suspect similar to how believers imagine them. We just don't think they're real.

Could there exist among all of them One who is superior to all the others, and who has been responsible for the existence of all of them?

Why not? Does he hate bacon, too?

Wouldn't an agnostic, who, although he doesn't know the truth about the matter, at least considers the possibility that such beings really exist, be much closer to understanding the matter?

That sort of depends on how you're using the words "agnostic" and "possibility." Technically, I'm an agnostic. The existence of gods is possible, because anything is possible. If you mean that an agnostic must think that the existence of a god is more probable than the existence of Santa Claus, then the only difference is that I'm better at math.

I don't think that someone who is not capable of imagining that scenario can understand through speculation, what is inside the minds of believers; Much less could he teach a believer anything about monotheism, henotheism or polytheism...

It's no less speculation just because you believe that it's true. No modern person knows what it's like to be Napoleon, even if they believe they're Napoleon.

What can a simple cook teach a surgeon about anatomy?

What can a simple cook teach a cook that believes they're a surgeon?

[Bible_Student]

@Difflugia I was merely attempting to engage with someone who claims to be a materialist.

It's quite ironic that I find myself in the position of instructing an atheist who struggles to juxtapose his imagined disbelief with the reality perceived by others. This lack of objectivity is clearly not serious. Your fantasies and fictional notions bear no relation to the reality experienced by believers. Clearly, you are just seeking to incite conflicts over a subject that you ought not to question in such a manner, especially not in this subforum where respect for the biblical perspective on the topics discussed is expected.

As for me, I believe this conversation with you is going nowhere, so I bid you farewell, wishing you a wonderful week ahead.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

Exodus 3:2, "The angel of the LORD appeared unto him (Moses) in a flame of fire." Verse 4, "And when the LORD (Jehovah) saw that he (Moses) turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses," Verse 5, Do not draw near this place "put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground. Verse 6, The LORD said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Verse 7, "And the LORD (Jehovah) said," to Moses ---."

Verse the LORD (Jehovah) said, "I have come down to deliver them (the Jews) out of the hand of the Egyptians,"

Verse 11, "Moses said unto God (Elohim)---."

In these verses, Jesus proves to have many names and titles, He is called,
1. The angel of the LORD

2. Elohim (God)

3. Jehovah (LORD)

4. I Am (the Almighty)

You have not shown that the angel of the LORD is the LORD.

[Difflugia]

Your fantasies and fictional notions bear no relation to the reality experienced by believers.

This might be the funniest sentence I've read in a long time. Tell me you're projecting without telling me you're projecting.

Clearly, you are just seeking to incite conflicts over a subject that you ought not to question in such a manner, especially not in this subforum where respect for the biblical perspective on the topics discussed is expected.

The conversation we were having was about the history of Israel as presented in the Bible. You claimed I can't understand it because I don't share the theological lens through which you filter it. Pointing out the failings of your theological perspective isn't disrespectful to a biblical perspective; the two are not the same. Rather than address the differences between what the Bible says and what you believe it says, you accuse me of some baked-in inability to understand.

Morton's Demon

If you decide you want to discuss the Bible again, I'm here.

As for me, I believe this conversation with you is going nowhere, so I bid you farewell, wishing you a wonderful week ahead.

A direction you find uncomfortable isn't nowhere. Enjoy your week, too.

[Tcg]

(...) That's polytheism, not henotheism. The Israelites were punished for actually worshipping other gods, not for merely thinking that they were real.

I don't think that the categories of monotheism, henotheism, and polytheism encompass the complete spectrum of religious beliefs that have existed or do exist across all human societies throughout history.

I also doubt that atheists can grasp concepts that hold no reality for them, treating it merely as an intellectual endeavor. Such ideas would inevitably require a deep dive into the meanings of terms like gods/God of gods, to render sacred service, decrees of the God/a god, the distinction between the real and the unreal, ...

We can grasp any concepts that you can and perhaps more. You should also not forget that many of us were believers, and some of us quite well studied ones, before we transitioned into atheists.

What you are attempting is called an Ad Hominem. This is a logical fallacy no matter the subforum it is presented in.


Tcg

[Tcg]

@Difflugia I was merely attempting to engage with someone who claims to be a materialist.

It's quite ironic that I find myself in the position of instructing an atheist who struggles to juxtapose his imagined disbelief with the reality perceived by others.

How is it that a theist can accuse us of not truly disbelieving and yet with the next breath claim we can't understand god concepts given that we don't believe any of them? It's quite the conundrum.


Tcg