The angel of the LORD

[placebofactor]

As we study the Scripture, we find the often-recurring phrase, “The angel of the LORD.” In almost all cases, this messenger is regarded as Deity yet distinguished from the Father. The angel of the LORD is the pre-incarnate Logos (the Word), his appearance in angelic or human form foreshadows his coming in the flesh.

Genesis 16:7-14, “The angel of the LORD found her (Hagar) by a fountain of water in the wilderness,” In verse 9, he tells Hagar to return to Sarai, and to submit to her. Verse 10, He tells her, “I will multiply your seed exceedingly, verse 11, He tells Hagar she’s with child and will bear a son, and that she is to call his name Ishmael; Verse 13, “She called the name of the LORD (Jehovah) that spoke unto her, thou God (the mighty one) sees me.”

Genesis 22:11, “The angel of the LORD called out to him (Abraham) out of heaven,” Verse 12, he said, “Lay not your hand upon the lad (Isaac). Verse 14, “Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh (meaning, the LORD will provide).

Verse 15-16, "The angel of the LORD called out unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, by myself have I sworn, said the LORD.”

Genesis 31:11, “The angel of God (Elohim) spoke unto me (Jacob) in a dream.” In verse 13, The angel of God (Elohim) then said, “I am the God (mighty one) of Bethel,”

Numbers 22:22-35, “The angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him (Balaam.) Verse25, “When the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall,” Verse 28, “And the LORD (Jehovah) opened the mouth of the ass,” Verse 31, “Then the LORD (Jehovah) opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD (Jehovah) standing in the way, and his sword drawn."

Judges 6:11-23, “The angel of the LORD appeared unto him (Gideon).” Because Gideon doubted the one speaking to him, he called him Adoni or Lord. Verse 14, “And the LORD (Jehovah) looked upon him,” Verse 23, “The LORD (Jehovah) said to him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shall not die.” Verse 25, “Gideon built an altar unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom:”

Judges 13: The angel of the LORD appears to the wife of Manoah, the father of Samson. She runs and tells her husband, “A man of God came unto me, his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God. Verse 8, “Manoah intreated the LORD (he calls him Adonay) a name for God only. In verse 17, Manoah asks the angel of the LORD, “What is your mane,” The LORD answered “My name is secret (meaning Wonderful). Wonderful is what Isaiah 9:6, calls the Son of God, his name shall be called “Wonderful.” Verse 22, “Manoah said unto his wife, we shall surely die, because we have seen God (Jehovah).”

[Bible_Student]

Elyon translates to "most high" and is not intended as a proper name but a qualifier. When paired with the noun "god," it forms a phrase that refers to the one true and faithful God, Jehovah, whose name appears countless times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures: the Most High God. The Hebrew term "elyon" is used commonly in the Hebrew Scriptures in very different contexts.

The notion that the Israelites can be labeled as "henotheists" overlooks the fact that they possessed a written Law that endured for millennia. The Bible explicitly details the actions of many kings who broke that Law, yet it also outlines the repercussions of their disobedience. Time and again, prophets of Jehovah were sent to communicate with these kings, representing the true God who had chosen Israel as His nation. Despite their repeated betrayals, He offered forgiveness until He ultimately turned away from them.

Numerous idols have been unearthed by archaeologists in Israel lands, clearly indicating that the land's former inhabitants practiced idolatry. As the Bible recounts, also the Israelites frequently adopted the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors, a fact well documented in the Scriptures. Thus, the assertion of Israelite "henotheism" is merely an overstated interpretation rooted in a limited viewpoint.

[RugMatic]

Elyon translates to "most high" and is not intended as a proper name but a qualifier. When paired with the noun "god," it forms a phrase that refers to the one true and faithful God, Jehovah, whose name appears countless times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures: the Most High God. The Hebrew term "elyon" is used commonly in the Hebrew Scriptures in very different contexts.

The notion that the Israelites can be labeled as "henotheists" overlooks the fact that they possessed a written Law that endured for millennia. The Bible explicitly details the actions of many kings who broke that Law, yet it also outlines the repercussions of their disobedience. Time and again, prophets of Jehovah were sent to communicate with these kings, representing the true God who had chosen Israel as His nation. Despite their repeated betrayals, He offered forgiveness until He ultimately turned away from them.

Numerous idols have been unearthed by archaeologists in Israel lands, clearly indicating that the land's former inhabitants practiced idolatry. As the Bible recounts, also the Israelites frequently adopted the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors, a fact well documented in the Scriptures. Thus, the assertion of Israelite "henotheism" is merely an overstated interpretation rooted in a limited viewpoint.

Solomon believed in the existence of many gods. He worshipped them as well. His last recorded act was ordering the murder of a prophesied rival. This Biblically confirmed polytheist wrote three Old Testament books.

I wouldn't call that a limited viewpoint. I took the narrative literally and seriously.

Edit: Some authors were monotheists, some were henotheists, and at least one, Solomon, was a polytheist.

[Bible_Student]

Elyon translates to "most high" and is not intended as a proper name but a qualifier. When paired with the noun "god," it forms a phrase that refers to the one true and faithful God, Jehovah, whose name appears countless times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures: the Most High God. The Hebrew term "elyon" is used commonly in the Hebrew Scriptures in very different contexts.

The notion that the Israelites can be labeled as "henotheists" overlooks the fact that they possessed a written Law that endured for millennia. The Bible explicitly details the actions of many kings who broke that Law, yet it also outlines the repercussions of their disobedience. Time and again, prophets of Jehovah were sent to communicate with these kings, representing the true God who had chosen Israel as His nation. Despite their repeated betrayals, He offered forgiveness until He ultimately turned away from them.

Numerous idols have been unearthed by archaeologists in Israel lands, clearly indicating that the land's former inhabitants practiced idolatry. As the Bible recounts, also the Israelites frequently adopted the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors, a fact well documented in the Scriptures. Thus, the assertion of Israelite "henotheism" is merely an overstated interpretation rooted in a limited viewpoint.

Solomon believed in the existence of many gods. He worshipped them as well. His last recorded act was ordering the murder of a prophesied rival. This Biblically confirmed henotheist wrote three Old Testament books.

I wouldn't call that a limited viewpoint. I took the narrative literally and seriously.

This is what the Bible says on that respect:

1) David, Salomon's father and King told him:

 1 Chro. 28:9 “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a complete heart and with a delightful soul, for Jehovah searches through all hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he will reject you forever. 10 See, now, for Jehovah has chosen you to build a house as a sanctuary. Be courageous and go to work.”

2) This is what the Bible says about Solomon at the beginning of his kingdom: he built the temple to Jehovah and "the king and all the people offered sacrifices before Jehovah." (2 Chro. 7:4)

3) About the last years of Solomon the Bible frankly says:

1 Kings 11:1 But King Solomon loved many foreign women besides the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women. 2 They were from the nations about whom Jehovah had said to the Israelites: “You must not go in among them, and they should not come in among you, for they will surely incline your heart to follow their gods.” But Solomon clung to them and loved them. 3 And he had 700 wives who were princesses and 300 concubines, and his wives gradually inclined his heart. 4 In Solomon's old age, his wives inclined his heart to follow other gods, and his heart was not complete with Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father. 5 And Solomon followed after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and Milcom, the disgusting god of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and he did not follow Jehovah completely as David his father had done.
7 It was then that Solomon built a high place to Chemosh, the disgusting god of Moab, on the mountain in front of Jerusalem and to Molech, the disgusting god of the Ammonites. 8 That was what he did for all his foreign wives who were making sacrificial smoke and sacrificing to their gods.
9 Jehovah became furious at Solomon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10 and had warned him about this very thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not obey what Jehovah had commanded. 11 Jehovah now said to Solomon: “Because you have done this and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes as I commanded you, I will surely rip the kingdom away from you, and I will give it to one of your servants. 12 However, for the sake of your father David, I will not do it in your lifetime. I will rip it out of the hand of your son, 13 but I will not rip away the entire kingdom. One tribe I will give to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.”

Is there anything new about Solomon that you would like to add that those of us who study the Bible don't already know?

[RugMatic]

Elyon translates to "most high" and is not intended as a proper name but a qualifier. When paired with the noun "god," it forms a phrase that refers to the one true and faithful God, Jehovah, whose name appears countless times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures: the Most High God. The Hebrew term "elyon" is used commonly in the Hebrew Scriptures in very different contexts.

The notion that the Israelites can be labeled as "henotheists" overlooks the fact that they possessed a written Law that endured for millennia. The Bible explicitly details the actions of many kings who broke that Law, yet it also outlines the repercussions of their disobedience. Time and again, prophets of Jehovah were sent to communicate with these kings, representing the true God who had chosen Israel as His nation. Despite their repeated betrayals, He offered forgiveness until He ultimately turned away from them.

Numerous idols have been unearthed by archaeologists in Israel lands, clearly indicating that the land's former inhabitants practiced idolatry. As the Bible recounts, also the Israelites frequently adopted the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors, a fact well documented in the Scriptures. Thus, the assertion of Israelite "henotheism" is merely an overstated interpretation rooted in a limited viewpoint.

Solomon believed in the existence of many gods. He worshipped them as well. His last recorded act was ordering the murder of a prophesied rival. This Biblically confirmed henotheist wrote three Old Testament books.

I wouldn't call that a limited viewpoint. I took the narrative literally and seriously.

This is what the Bible says on that respect:

1) David, Salomon's father and King told him:

 1 Chro. 28:9 “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a complete heart and with a delightful soul, for Jehovah searches through all hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he will reject you forever. 10 See, now, for Jehovah has chosen you to build a house as a sanctuary. Be courageous and go to work.”

2) This is what the Bible says about Solomon at the beginning of his kingdom: he built the temple to Jehovah and "the king and all the people offered sacrifices before Jehovah." (2 Chro. 7:4)

3) About the last years of Solomon the Bible frankly says:

1 Kings 11:1 But King Solomon loved many foreign women besides the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women. 2 They were from the nations about whom Jehovah had said to the Israelites: “You must not go in among them, and they should not come in among you, for they will surely incline your heart to follow their gods.” But Solomon clung to them and loved them. 3 And he had 700 wives who were princesses and 300 concubines, and his wives gradually inclined his heart. 4 In Solomon's old age, his wives inclined his heart to follow other gods, and his heart was not complete with Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father. 5 And Solomon followed after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and Milcom, the disgusting god of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah, and he did not follow Jehovah completely as David his father had done.
7 It was then that Solomon built a high place to Chemosh, the disgusting god of Moab, on the mountain in front of Jerusalem and to Molech, the disgusting god of the Ammonites. 8 That was what he did for all his foreign wives who were making sacrificial smoke and sacrificing to their gods.
9 Jehovah became furious at Solomon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10 and had warned him about this very thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not obey what Jehovah had commanded. 11 Jehovah now said to Solomon: “Because you have done this and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes as I commanded you, I will surely rip the kingdom away from you, and I will give it to one of your servants. 12 However, for the sake of your father David, I will not do it in your lifetime. I will rip it out of the hand of your son, 13 but I will not rip away the entire kingdom. One tribe I will give to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.”

Is there anything new about Solomon that you would like to add that those of us who study the Bible don't already know?

My point, to which you just agreed, was that a Biblical author was a confirmed henotheist.

So we got no beef. We agree. Yippy

[Bible_Student]

You don't mean an "henotheist" but an idolater who angered the true God.

The Bible contains many cases of unfaithful Israelites... but also some who never betrayed Jehovah. On this the Bible makes clear:

Rom. 3:3 What, then, is the case? If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? 4 Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar, just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

So was the entire nation of Israel an idolatrous nation, or were only those who forsook Jehovah idolaters?

Is. 10:21 Only a remnant will return,
The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea,
Only a remnant of them will return.
An extermination has been decided on,
And justice will engulf them.
23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,
Will be carried out in the entire land.

In fact, how many Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah that Jehovah had told them he would send?

[Difflugia]

Baal is a title meaning "Master/Lord".

El is a title meaning "God"

These are both true, but not exclusively so. Again, this is at least partly a discussion for C&A, since most of the evidence would be in Ugaritic texts and usage seems to have changed through time. It's still true in just the Bible, though.

Baal was obviously originally a title, but became a proper name. It usually appears with a definite article, but Jeremiah 23:13 is one of the few unambiguous references to Baal as the proper name of a deity by Hebrew grammatical rules.

In addition, there are many more verses that strongly imply that Baal is a personal name. A number of people named their kids "Baal," for example, and they were presumably naming their kids after the deity. Baal is also used opposite Yahweh in parallels that would strongly imply the name of a deity, even when used with an article. Judges 2:13, for example, has both Baal and Ashtaroth mentioned opposite Yahweh. Both Baal and Ashtaroth are known Canaanite deities and both names include a definite article in that verse.

El is used multiple times unambiguously as a personal name. Job 5:8 is one.

El is a title meaning "God", as in Arabic, Allah (from the same semitic root) is not really a proper name but a title that ended up being used as a direct reference to God. Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

This is an interesting argument for T&D. It's likely that El was originally an appellative for named gods, but is also the personal name of a specific Canaanite deity as well as being used in the Bible as a personal name for the Israelite god. If God's name was El by the time 2 Kings and the latest of the Psalms were written, was it always necessarily so, or can God have gained the name at some definite point in time?

Were we always at war with Eastasia?

Elyon translates to "most high" and is not intended as a proper name but a qualifier.

Again, it's used both ways. In Genesis 14, it's used with El in a construct form and probably refers to the Canaanite El, but in Numbers 24:16 and Deuteronomy 32:8, it appears as a distinct name rather than a qualifier or title.

When paired with the noun "god," it forms a phrase that refers to the one true and faithful God, Jehovah, whose name appears countless times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures: the Most High God.

In TD&D, anyway.

The notion that the Israelites can be labeled as "henotheists" overlooks the fact that they possessed a written Law that endured for millennia. The Bible explicitly details the actions of many kings who broke that Law, yet it also outlines the repercussions of their disobedience. Time and again, prophets of Jehovah were sent to communicate with these kings, representing the true God who had chosen Israel as His nation. Despite their repeated betrayals, He offered forgiveness until He ultimately turned away from them.

I think you misunderstand henotheism. In religious practice, monotheism and henotheism are essentially the same thing. Monotheism means that there is only one god and we worship that one god. Henotheism means that multiple gods exist, but we worship one of them exclusively. Judges 11:24 is unabashedly henotheistic: "Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And whoever's land Yahweh our god has taken from before us, that will we possess."

Numerous idols have been unearthed by archaeologists in Israel lands, clearly indicating that the land's former inhabitants practiced idolatry. As the Bible recounts, also the Israelites frequently adopted the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors, a fact well documented in the Scriptures. Thus, the assertion of Israelite "henotheism" is merely an overstated interpretation rooted in a limited viewpoint.

That's polytheism, not henotheism. The Israelites were punished for actually worshipping other gods, not for merely thinking that they were real.

[RugMatic]

You don't mean an "henotheist" but an idolater who angered the true God.

The Bible contains many cases of unfaithful Israelites... but also some who never betrayed Jehovah. On this the Bible makes clear:

Rom. 3:3 What, then, is the case? If some lacked faith, will their lack of faith invalidate the faithfulness of God? 4 Certainly not! But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar, just as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.”

So was the entire nation of Israel an idolatrous nation, or were only those who forsook Jehovah idolaters?

Is. 10:21 Only a remnant will return,
The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea,
Only a remnant of them will return.
An extermination has been decided on,
And justice will engulf them.
23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,
Will be carried out in the entire land.

In fact, how many Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah that Jehovah had told them he would send?

You're correct. I inadvertently called Solomon a henotheist. He was a polytheist. I edited my previous post to correct my blunder. Thanks for pointing that out.

Some Old Testament authors were monotheists. Some were henotheists. At least one, Solomon, was a polytheist. Solomon wrote three books and was condemned by the author of kings as an avowed polytheist. His last recorded act was ordering the murder of a prophesied rival, 1 Kings 11:40. Pehaps Solomon repented of his polytheism and the Bible failed to mention it. Super bizarre.

Most likely Solomon never existed. So it doesn't matter to me why the author of kings threw the fabled king under the bus.

My favorite Psalm is 82, where Asaph loses his faith in henotheism. He viewed God, ( presumably Yahweh, though Yahweh isn't mentioned), as a mere member of the congregation of gods,verse 2. He thought all the gods were sons of Elyon, Top God,verse 6. He sees no evidence of their justice, verses 3-5, and believes Elyon stripped them of their divinity, thereby dooming them to mortality and eventually death, verse 7.

John depicts Jesus as interpreting the gods of this Psalm to be the Jews: If he called them gods to whom the word of God ( the Old Testament ) came, John 10:35.

On any event, the thought that the Old Testament authors were thinking of the Greek Logos when they wrote of the angel of Yahweh is goofy. Just plain goofy. Seems like a New Testament author would have mentioned this and they didn't.

Your question: How many Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah that Jehovah told them he would send? I have no idea.

[JehovahsWitness]

I inadvertently called Solomon a henotheist. He was a polytheist

That is correct. The point however is, was his polytheism endosser in scripture. Note the following ...

1 KINGS 11 v4

For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been

[Bible_Student]

(...) That's polytheism, not henotheism. The Israelites were punished for actually worshipping other gods, not for merely thinking that they were real.

I don't think that the categories of monotheism, henotheism, and polytheism encompass the complete spectrum of religious beliefs that have existed or do exist across all human societies throughout history.

I also doubt that atheists can grasp concepts that hold no reality for them, treating it merely as an intellectual endeavor. Such ideas would inevitably require a deep dive into the meanings of terms like gods/God of gods, to render sacred service, decrees of the God/a god, the distinction between the real and the unreal, ...

[Difflugia]

I don't think that the categories of monotheism, henotheism, and polytheism encompass the complete spectrum of religious beliefs that have existed or do exist across all human societies throughout history.

I'm certain that's true, but it doesn't invalidate the point that RugMatic was trying to make.

I also doubt that atheists can grasp concepts that hold no reality for them, treating it merely as an intellectual endeavor.

I'm sure that would be comforting to believe, like that only children that believe in Santa Claus can hear the sleigh bells.

Such ideas would inevitably require a deep dive into the meanings of terms like gods/God of gods, to render sacred service, decrees of the God/a god, the distinction between the real and the unreal, ...

I hope you'll forgive me, but I've come to suspect that any Christian apologetic argument that relies on peculiar definitions tends to also rely on equivocation. If we both agree that fireflies are real and leprechauns aren't, then I'd bet that we understand each other's positions well enough to discuss the reality of gods. That discussion may be uncomfortable, but the discomfort probably owes far more to our shared understanding than its lack.