Hebrews 1 and 2

[placebofactor]

The book of Hebrews was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. When Hebrews was written, only the Jews were acquainted with the Mosaic law, their traditions, and the oral law.
The Book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand could have comprehended it because of their unfamiliarity with the Jewish system.

Jesus of Nazareth is the True God: To convince the Jews, of the truth of this proposition, the writer of the book uses three arguments:
1. Christ is superior to the angels.
2. He is superior to Moses.
3. He is superior to Aaron.

Isaiah 52:13, “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled (lifted up), and be very high.”

Christ: King of the Jews, elevated above Abraham, Moses; and the angels, all fulfilled in the Jewish Messiah. And because Christ was greater than these, he must be greater than every created being. If understood in this light, according to Jewish phraseology, Jesus is an uncreated Being, infinitely greater than all others, whether earthly or heavenly. For as the Jews allowed the greatest eminence to angels (next to the Father) the writer concludes, “That he who is greater than the angels is truly God:

Hebrews 1:6, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” This would include Lucifer, also called the devil, or Satan.

This is the point of the writer of Hebrews, be it Paul or Luke. His epistles were clear, and his proof lies in the following.

Jesus has a more excellent name than angels, including Michael and Gabriel. Hebrews 1:4, “He has by inheritance (from his Father) obtained a more excellent name than they.”

Jesus is adored by the angels Hebrews 1:6, because he created them, verse 7, “Who made his angels spirits,”

In his human nature, he was endowed with greater gifts than they. Hebrews 1:8-9.

Because Jesus is eternal: Verses 10-11: He laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of his hands: They shall perish; but he will remain.

Jesus is more highly exalted, Hebrews 1:13, the Father said to him, “Sit at my right hand,”

Angels are the servants of God, but Jesus is the Son of God. Verse 14.

The Jews were warned not to neglect Christ. Hebrews 2:1, “Give heed to the things which we (the apostles) have heard,”

A negative argument is given by Divine Revelations.
Jesus is a man, less than the angels. Hebrew 2:6. Therefore, he cannot be superior to them.

How to answer this argument: Jesus, as a mortal, by his death and resurrection, overcame all his enemies, and subdued all things to himself; therefore, he must be greater than the angels, Hebrews 2:9, “Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor: that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Though Jesus died as a man, and was in respect, inferior to the angels; it was necessary to take on to himself the form of a man and be of the same nature as those he was to redeem; a thing he did without prejudice to his Divinity, read Hebrews 2:10-18.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and of our salvation.
Your thoughts:

[onewithhim]

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)

Bible has this teaching about serving others:

But through love serve one another.
Gal. 5:13

And this, which tells, what we do to others, we do to God also.

Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ; or thirsting, and gave You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You ? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I thirsted, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:34-46

I think we should serve others, also Jesus. But we should not keep anything else as our God than the one and only true God, the Father.

Yes, but Jesus said, "worship God and serve Him only.
Do that mean that you serve and worship other than God? You worship Jesus, right?

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I think Jesus says we should be one with Jesus and God, the same ways Jesus is one with the God. Jesus doesn't say "in the state of being God".

Yes, Jesus is one with God and in the form of God.
If you believe God the Father words rather than Jesus, why deny when the Father called Jesus "God" in Psalms 45:6, Heb 1:8?

The Father said no such thing. The author of Heb.1:8 was quoting from Psalm 45:6, and he would have written it just the way it was written in the Psalm. The Hebrew handling of this phrase is from a Jewish Bible translated from the Hebrew: "Your divine throne is everlasting," not "Thy throne O God is forever and ever." Why would the writer of Hebrews change it? The throne of Jesus Christ has divine backing. In other words, God is backing up Christ's throne with power and glory given to Christ from the Father.

[Capbook]

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)

Bible has this teaching about serving others:

But through love serve one another.
Gal. 5:13

And this, which tells, what we do to others, we do to God also.

Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ; or thirsting, and gave You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You ? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I thirsted, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:34-46

I think we should serve others, also Jesus. But we should not keep anything else as our God than the one and only true God, the Father.

Yes, but Jesus said, "worship God and serve Him only.
Do that mean that you serve and worship other than God? You worship Jesus, right?

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I think Jesus says we should be one with Jesus and God, the same ways Jesus is one with the God. Jesus doesn't say "in the state of being God".

Yes, Jesus is one with God and in the form of God.
If you believe God the Father words rather than Jesus, why deny when the Father called Jesus "God" in Psalms 45:6, Heb 1:8?

The Father said no such thing. The author of Heb.1:8 was quoting from Psalm 45:6, and he would have written it just the way it was written in the Psalm. The Hebrew handling of this phrase is from a Jewish Bible translated from the Hebrew: "Your divine throne is everlasting," not "Thy throne O God is forever and ever." Why would the writer of Hebrews change it? The throne of Jesus Christ has divine backing. In other words, God is backing up Christ's throne with power and glory given to Christ from the Father.

Another paraphrase translation, not a word for word translation that Bible words in Hebrew and Greek did not exist. No use of Strong Concordance and dictionaries, higher possibility of mis-interpretation, could be guilty of eisegesis.
Don' you have word for word Bible translations?

No, the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) translation of the Bible is not a word-for-word translation.
https://www.google.com/search?q=is+jewi ... s-wiz-serp

[1213]

...
If you believe God the Father words rather than Jesus, why deny when the Father called Jesus "God" in Psalms 45:6, Heb 1:8?

The Father called also Moses god.

Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Exod. 7:1

I think in this case it is good to remember these words:

For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:5-6

[placebofactor]

[Replying to 1213 in post #23]

Jesus Christ was found in the fashion of a man, not found in the fashion of the Father. He became lower than the angels. Jesus Christ created angels, therefore he is higher than the angels. Only God can create, therefore Jesus is God.

Colossians 1:15, Jesus Christ "Who is the image of the invisible God," Jesus is the counterpart of his Father; because the Father is invisible, consequently the Father's image in his Son must also be invisible. So those who saw Christ saw only that part of him that was flesh. The invisible form of his Father is what Jesus divested himself of; his flesh covered his inexpressible glory and splendor concealing it from the eyes of men. But his words and his works were seen and witnessed by many. What could not be seen by the eyes of men was the Father's divine nature that was hidden beneath the flesh of a man, but the fulness of the Godhead bodily, dwelt in him.

Luke 1:80, As a mortal child of flesh, (Jesus) had to grow in stature, vigor, and spirit as a man of flesh, but his understanding illuminated from above. And after his resurrection, He was "Glorified with the glory which he had with his Father before the world was." John 17:5. He came from glory and returned to glory.

[onewithhim]

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)

Bible has this teaching about serving others:

But through love serve one another.
Gal. 5:13

And this, which tells, what we do to others, we do to God also.

Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ; or thirsting, and gave You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You ? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I thirsted, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:34-46

I think we should serve others, also Jesus. But we should not keep anything else as our God than the one and only true God, the Father.

Yes, but Jesus said, "worship God and serve Him only.
Do that mean that you serve and worship other than God? You worship Jesus, right?

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I think Jesus says we should be one with Jesus and God, the same ways Jesus is one with the God. Jesus doesn't say "in the state of being God".

Yes, Jesus is one with God and in the form of God.
If you believe God the Father words rather than Jesus, why deny when the Father called Jesus "God" in Psalms 45:6, Heb 1:8?

The Father said no such thing. The author of Heb.1:8 was quoting from Psalm 45:6, and he would have written it just the way it was written in the Psalm. The Hebrew handling of this phrase is from a Jewish Bible translated from the Hebrew: "Your divine throne is everlasting," not "Thy throne O God is forever and ever." Why would the writer of Hebrews change it? The throne of Jesus Christ has divine backing. In other words, God is backing up Christ's throne with power and glory given to Christ from the Father.

Another paraphrase translation, not a word for word translation that Bible words in Hebrew and Greek did not exist. No use of Strong Concordance and dictionaries, higher possibility of mis-interpretation, could be guilty of eisegesis.
Don' you have word for word Bible translations?

No, the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) translation of the Bible is not a word-for-word translation.
https://www.google.com/search?q=is+jewi ... s-wiz-serp

There are no Bibles with word-for-word translations except an Interlinear Bible.

What Bibles do you know of that are word-for-word?

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #23]

Jesus Christ was found in the fashion of a man, not found in the fashion of the Father. He became lower than the angels. Jesus Christ created angels, therefore he is higher than the angels. Only God can create, therefore Jesus is God. ...

But, Jesus said:

I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.
John 5:30

That is why I believe God is the creator and Jesus is the mediator between God and men.

[Bible_Student]

cite to argue that Jesus did not receive life from God, they often omit the full context of the passage.

First, they typically do not mention that directly quotes originally referring to a human king. This implies that Bible translations rendering it as "you, O God" are altering the text's meaning to suggest Jesus is called God. If true, it would mean the human king originally addressed would also be called God, which is absurd.

This is deeply flawed because you are omitting the full context yourself. In order for your handwaving dismissal cum argument to be valid, we must assume that the author of Hebrews must share the same intention in quoting the OG translation of a Psalm that the original Hebrew author intended. If that were the case, then every theological repurposing of an Old Testament passage by a New Testament author is invalid. The Immanuel prophecy as interpreted by Matthew, for example, would be equally "absurd" because the context was of a political situation that took place 700 years earlier and didn't involve a woman becoming pregnant while still a virgin.

The majority of scholars think that the author of Hebrews intended the quotation of to be read with vocative address to God. I've also addressed this in previous comments, but I can add a bit more than my own say-so: "The Vorlage of () in " by Gert J. Steyn. Section is entitled "ο θεος as vocative."...

Thank you for your response about Psalm 45.

When I refer to "context," I am not speaking of the assumptions made by what the world deems "biblical scholars." By "context," I refer to the words of the Bible as expressed in the verses preceding and following a particular text; then to what is articulated about the topic in related verses found within the Bible; and finally, to passages that may not be directly related but provide additional clarity on the issue at hand ... always inside the Bible.

Given that your understanding of "the context" of a biblical passage differs from mine, I believe you might not perceive the situation the same way as I do. From the biblical context I am considering, the passage unmistakably pertains to a human king whom God anoints over other kings, who are referred to (within the context) as "the companions" of that specific king.

It seems a Trinitarian would need to stretch the "context" that I regard as most significant to forcefully interpret the passage as referring to someone called "God" while simultaneously being depicted as an anointed one of God among peers. In fact, a Jewish translation of the text which I read, does not render the subject, the king, as a "god," but rather as a "judge," whom God anoints. For a Jew, "God" cannot be "anointed" by another; such an idea is deemed blasphemous. Naturally, one could create "a Trinitarian Judaism," but that would simply be a fabrication...

PS: There are many people in this world who make a living by inventing new ideas. I try to be wary of such people for reasons that are easily understandable to a person who respects God.

[Difflugia]

Thank you for your response about Psalm 45.

When I refer to "context," I am not speaking of the assumptions made by what the world deems "biblical scholars."

Ooh. Scare quotes. I suppose it must rankle a bit when "scholarship" so consistently contradicts Witness "theology," eh?

By "context," I refer to the words of the Bible as expressed in the verses preceding and following a particular text; then to what is articulated about the topic in related verses found within the Bible; and finally, to passages that may not be directly related but provide additional clarity on the issue at hand ... always inside the Bible.

And you used your transparent attack on scholarship to distract from the contextual point I made by your own definition. To repeat it, you're trying to claim that the author of Hebrews must be intending the quotation from a translation of Psalms exactly as narrowly as the original author wrote it. If that argument is valid, then the Immanuel prophecy is meaningless.

Given that your understanding of "the context" of a biblical passage differs from mine,

I'm not sure it does. Since you didn't address the most damning part of my argument, I think we both understand it perfectly well.

I believe you might not perceive the situation the same way as I do. From the biblical context I am considering, the passage unmistakably pertains to a human king whom God anoints over other kings, who are referred to (within the context) as "the companions" of that specific king.

And the Immanuel prophecy unmistakably pertains to a mundane child's life marking the timeframe of Israel and Syria being defeated by the Assyrians.

It seems a Trinitarian

would need to stretch the "context" that I regard as most significant to forcefully interpret the passage as referring to someone called "God" while simultaneously being depicted as an anointed one of God among peers.

The Christology of Hebrews is one of the highest in the New Testament. He is, at the very least, above the angels. Who exactly do you think are the peers of the Christ as portrayed in Hebrews?

In fact, a Jewish translation of the text which I read, does not render the subject, the king, as a "god," but rather as a "judge," whom God anoints. For a Jew, "God" cannot be "anointed" by another; such an idea is deemed blasphemous. Naturally, one could create "a Trinitarian Judaism," but that would simply be a fabrication...

And what do you think a Jewish translator of Hebrew Psalms has to do with a New Testament author finding Christological significance in the Septuagint? I mean, at least to the extent you can while ignoring "scholarship."

PS: There are many people in this world who make a living by inventing new ideas. I try to be wary of such people for reasons that are easily understandable to a person who respects God.

Says the member of a literally unorthodox sect of Christianity.

[Bible_Student]

Thank you for your response about Psalm 45.

When I refer to "context," I am not speaking of the assumptions made by what the world deems "biblical scholars."

Ooh. Scare quotes. I suppose it must rankle a bit when "scholarship" so consistently contradicts Witness "theology," eh?...

Thanks for your interest on continuing a dialog with me, a Jehovah's witness.

"Biblical Scholarship" is a designation that humans assign, rather than one bestowed by God. Why should I regard anything said by someone with that title as "sacred" or infallible?

Numerous biblical scholars reject the notion that the Bible is divinely inspired, and a significant number even question the existence of God. How can they discern God's intentions behind the Scriptures that He inspired?

For this reason, I encourage you to examine the Bible primarily through its own pages.

[marke]

The book of Hebrews was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. When Hebrews was written, only the Jews were acquainted with the Mosaic law, their traditions, and the oral law.
The Book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand could have comprehended it because of their unfamiliarity with the Jewish system.

Jesus of Nazareth is the True God: To convince the Jews, of the truth of this proposition, the writer of the book uses three arguments:
1. Christ is superior to the angels.
2. He is superior to Moses.
3. He is superior to Aaron.

Isaiah 52:13, “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled (lifted up), and be very high.”

Christ: King of the Jews, elevated above Abraham, Moses; and the angels, all fulfilled in the Jewish Messiah. And because Christ was greater than these, he must be greater than every created being. If understood in this light, according to Jewish phraseology, Jesus is an uncreated Being, infinitely greater than all others, whether earthly or heavenly. For as the Jews allowed the greatest eminence to angels (next to the Father) the writer concludes, “That he who is greater than the angels is truly God:

Hebrews 1:6, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” This would include Lucifer, also called the devil, or Satan.

This is the point of the writer of Hebrews, be it Paul or Luke. His epistles were clear, and his proof lies in the following.

Jesus has a more excellent name than angels, including Michael and Gabriel. Hebrews 1:4, “He has by inheritance (from his Father) obtained a more excellent name than they.”

Jesus is adored by the angels Hebrews 1:6, because he created them, verse 7, “Who made his angels spirits,”

In his human nature, he was endowed with greater gifts than they. Hebrews 1:8-9.

Because Jesus is eternal: Verses 10-11: He laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of his hands: They shall perish; but he will remain.

Jesus is more highly exalted, Hebrews 1:13, the Father said to him, “Sit at my right hand,”

Angels are the servants of God, but Jesus is the Son of God. Verse 14.

The Jews were warned not to neglect Christ. Hebrews 2:1, “Give heed to the things which we (the apostles) have heard,”

A negative argument is given by Divine Revelations.
Jesus is a man, less than the angels. Hebrew 2:6. Therefore, he cannot be superior to them.

How to answer this argument: Jesus, as a mortal, by his death and resurrection, overcame all his enemies, and subdued all things to himself; therefore, he must be greater than the angels, Hebrews 2:9, “Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor: that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Though Jesus died as a man, and was in respect, inferior to the angels; it was necessary to take on to himself the form of a man and be of the same nature as those he was to redeem; a thing he did without prejudice to his Divinity, read Hebrews 2:10-18.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and of our salvation.
Your thoughts:

Marke: The entire Bible is written to believers of all ages and profitable to all believers of all ages for doctrine, correction, and instruction. Hebrews 11:40 lists the OT believers who died in faith and then instructs NT Christians that the OT saints serve as instruction to US, NT Christians. The Book of Hebrews was written to NT Christians because those faithful OT believers mentioned in Hebrews 11 were long gone before the NT was written.