Hebrews 1 and 2

[placebofactor]

The book of Hebrews was written before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. When Hebrews was written, only the Jews were acquainted with the Mosaic law, their traditions, and the oral law.
The Book of Hebrews was written to the Jews, had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand could have comprehended it because of their unfamiliarity with the Jewish system.

Jesus of Nazareth is the True God: To convince the Jews, of the truth of this proposition, the writer of the book uses three arguments:
1. Christ is superior to the angels.
2. He is superior to Moses.
3. He is superior to Aaron.

Isaiah 52:13, “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled (lifted up), and be very high.”

Christ: King of the Jews, elevated above Abraham, Moses; and the angels, all fulfilled in the Jewish Messiah. And because Christ was greater than these, he must be greater than every created being. If understood in this light, according to Jewish phraseology, Jesus is an uncreated Being, infinitely greater than all others, whether earthly or heavenly. For as the Jews allowed the greatest eminence to angels (next to the Father) the writer concludes, “That he who is greater than the angels is truly God:

Hebrews 1:6, “And let all the angels of God worship him.” This would include Lucifer, also called the devil, or Satan.

This is the point of the writer of Hebrews, be it Paul or Luke. His epistles were clear, and his proof lies in the following.

Jesus has a more excellent name than angels, including Michael and Gabriel. Hebrews 1:4, “He has by inheritance (from his Father) obtained a more excellent name than they.”

Jesus is adored by the angels Hebrews 1:6, because he created them, verse 7, “Who made his angels spirits,”

In his human nature, he was endowed with greater gifts than they. Hebrews 1:8-9.

Because Jesus is eternal: Verses 10-11: He laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of his hands: They shall perish; but he will remain.

Jesus is more highly exalted, Hebrews 1:13, the Father said to him, “Sit at my right hand,”

Angels are the servants of God, but Jesus is the Son of God. Verse 14.

The Jews were warned not to neglect Christ. Hebrews 2:1, “Give heed to the things which we (the apostles) have heard,”

A negative argument is given by Divine Revelations.
Jesus is a man, less than the angels. Hebrew 2:6. Therefore, he cannot be superior to them.

How to answer this argument: Jesus, as a mortal, by his death and resurrection, overcame all his enemies, and subdued all things to himself; therefore, he must be greater than the angels, Hebrews 2:9, “Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor: that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

Though Jesus died as a man, and was in respect, inferior to the angels; it was necessary to take on to himself the form of a man and be of the same nature as those he was to redeem; a thing he did without prejudice to his Divinity, read Hebrews 2:10-18.
He is the author and finisher of our faith and of our salvation.
Your thoughts:

[1213]

...
Bible lexicon defined "Christian" in Greek "Christianos" means a follower of Christ.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Jesus defines his disciples (="Christians") as people who remain in his word:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:31-32

I think his definition is the correct one, and I want to remain in his word. If you think I have not done that, please tell why do you think so.

[Capbook]

And why do you worship and serve Jesus, as Jesus said "worship God and serve Him only".
Whose words you will only obey? The Father or Jesus?

I want to obey Fathers words. And as Jesus told, he spoke what the Father had commanded him to speak, which is why his words are also Fathers words.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50
Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17
Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. He who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words. The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me.
John 14:23-24
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
John 3:34

So, you are not a Christian. You are not a follower of Christ, an answer to your statement I colored blue above.
Bible lexicon defined "Christian" in Greek "Christianos" means a follower of Christ.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

G5546 (Thayer)
Χριστιανός
Christianos
Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

You just confirmed that you obey the Father words rather than Jesus when I questioned you.
With that you just confirmed that you are not a Christian, as a follower of Christ you should also obey His words.

[1213]

And why do you worship and serve Jesus, as Jesus said "worship God and serve Him only".
Whose words you will only obey? The Father or Jesus?

I want to obey Fathers words. And as Jesus told, he spoke what the Father had commanded him to speak, which is why his words are also Fathers words.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50
Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17
Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. He who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words. The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me.
John 14:23-24
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
John 3:34

So, you are not a Christian. You are not a follower of Christ, an answer to your statement I colored blue above.
Bible lexicon defined "Christian" in Greek "Christianos" means a follower of Christ.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

G5546 (Thayer)
Χριστιανός
Christianos
Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

You just confirmed that you obey the Father words rather than Jesus when I questioned you.
With that you just confirmed that you are not a Christian, as a follower of Christ you should also obey His words.

Jesus told that he spoke what God had commanded him to speak, meaning, the words of Jesus are the words of the Father. Do you have some reason not to believe what Jesus says?

[Capbook]

And why do you worship and serve Jesus, as Jesus said "worship God and serve Him only".
Whose words you will only obey? The Father or Jesus?

I want to obey Fathers words. And as Jesus told, he spoke what the Father had commanded him to speak, which is why his words are also Fathers words.

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50
Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17
Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. He who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words. The word which you hear isn't mine, but the Father's who sent me.
John 14:23-24
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for God gives the Spirit without measure.
John 3:34

So, you are not a Christian. You are not a follower of Christ, an answer to your statement I colored blue above.
Bible lexicon defined "Christian" in Greek "Christianos" means a follower of Christ.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

G5546 (Thayer)
Χριστιανός
Christianos
Thayer Definition:
1) Christian, a follower of Christ

You just confirmed that you obey the Father words rather than Jesus when I questioned you.
With that you just confirmed that you are not a Christian, as a follower of Christ you should also obey His words.

Jesus told that he spoke what God had commanded him to speak, meaning, the words of Jesus are the words of the Father. Do you have some reason not to believe what Jesus says?

I believe and trying to obey all what Jesus and the Father hath said.
But Jesus said, " worship and serve God only." You disobey Jesus words by worshipping and serving Him.
For us, no disobedience done as Jesus and the Father are one in the state of being God.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[1213]

...
But Jesus said, " worship and serve God only." You disobey Jesus words by worshiping and serving Him.

Do you mean I disobey Jesus by worshiping God?

For us, no disobedience done as Jesus and the Father are one in the state of being God.

Did you know that disciples of Jesus are one with the God the same way?

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11
that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

[Capbook]

...
But Jesus said, " worship and serve God only." You disobey Jesus words by worshiping and serving Him.

Do you mean I disobey Jesus by worshiping God?

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

For us, no disobedience done as Jesus and the Father are one in the state of being God.

Did you know that disciples of Jesus are one with the God the same way?

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:11
that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

[Bible_Student]

I think that a previous comment of mine in a different thread could provide some valuable insights for this discussion:

When Trinitarians cite Heb. 1:5-8 to argue that Jesus did not receive life from God, they often omit the full context of the passage.

First, they typically do not mention Heb. 1:8,9 that directly quotes Psalm 45:6,7 originally referring to a human king. This implies that Bible translations rendering it as "you, O God" are altering the text's meaning to suggest Jesus is called God. If true, it would mean the human king originally addressed would also be called God, which is absurd.

Second, Heb. 1:9, part of the immediate context, states that Jesus' God anointed him more than other kings. This clearly shows that Hebrews 1 does not suggest Jesus lacks a higher authority, as Paul states in 1 Cor. 11:3, where God is the head of Jesus as much as Christ is the head of the congregation.

Third, they omit Heb. 1:4, part of the context, which states Jesus "became" heir to a better name. This implies a transformation in authority, as he received greater authority upon his resurrection, "becoming" superior according to the name he received.

Fourth, they overlook the context in Heb. 1:2, which says Jesus is an heir of God. An heir receives from the owner, indicating his position is not equal to the one who grants the inheritance. In Psalm 2:8, Jehovah tells Jesus to ask for something, which he would receive as an inheritance.

Fifth, Heb. 1:3 in the context explains that after purifying us from sins, Jesus sat beside the Majesty in heaven. It is evident that the Majesty is the one beside whom Jesus was seated. Jehovah is the one who seated Jesus next to him, as clearly stated in Psalm 110:1,2.

Are Trinitarians genuinely confused? Are they deliberately attempting to manipulate the Bible's words to fit a narrative it doesn't convey, thus evading the truth? Living in falsehood is untenable; those who spread lies about God and His Son are collaborating with the Devil to prevent people from achieving salvation (John 17:3).

viewtopic.php?p=1161530#p1161530

[1213]

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)

Bible has this teaching about serving others:

But through love serve one another.
Gal. 5:13

And this, which tells, what we do to others, we do to God also.

Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ; or thirsting, and gave You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You ? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I thirsted, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:34-46

I think we should serve others, also Jesus. But we should not keep anything else as our God than the one and only true God, the Father.

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I think Jesus says we should be one with Jesus and God, the same ways Jesus is one with the God. Jesus doesn't say "in the state of being God".

[Difflugia]

When Trinitarians

cite Heb. 1:5-8 to argue that Jesus did not receive life from God, they often omit the full context of the passage.

First, they typically do not mention Heb. 1:8,9 that directly quotes Psalm 45:6,7 originally referring to a human king. This implies that Bible translations rendering it as "you, O God" are altering the text's meaning to suggest Jesus is called God. If true, it would mean the human king originally addressed would also be called God, which is absurd.

This is deeply flawed because you are omitting the full context yourself. In order for your handwaving dismissal cum argument to be valid, we must assume that the author of Hebrews must share the same intention in quoting the OG translation of a Psalm that the original Hebrew author intended. If that were the case, then every theological repurposing of an Old Testament passage by a New Testament author is invalid. The Immanuel prophecy as interpreted by Matthew, for example, would be equally "absurd" because the context was of a political situation that took place 700 years earlier and didn't involve a woman becoming pregnant while still a virgin.

The majority of scholars think that the author of Hebrews intended the quotation of Psalm 45:6-7 to be read with vocative address to God. I've also addressed this in previous comments, but I can add a bit more than my own say-so: "The Vorlage of Psalm 45:6-7 (44:7-8) in Hebrews 1:8-9" by Gert J. Steyn. Section 3.2 is entitled "ο θεος as vocative."

Are Trinitarians

genuinely confused?

Yes, but not by what you think.

Are they deliberately attempting to manipulate the Bible's words to fit a narrative it doesn't convey, thus evading the truth?

It's this kind of overt projection and profound lack of self-awareness that is so confusing.

[Capbook]

You disobey Jesus by worshiping and serving Jesus, as Jesus said, worship and serve God only.(Mat 4:10)

Bible has this teaching about serving others:

But through love serve one another.
Gal. 5:13

And this, which tells, what we do to others, we do to God also.

Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I hungered, and you gave Me food to eat; I thirsted, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ; or thirsting, and gave You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and took You in; or naked, and clothed You ? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And answering, the King will say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you did it to Me. Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I hungered, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I thirsted, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not take Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You? Then He will answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of these, the least, neither did you do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:34-46

I think we should serve others, also Jesus. But we should not keep anything else as our God than the one and only true God, the Father.

Yes, but Jesus said, "worship God and serve Him only.
Do that mean that you serve and worship other than God? You worship Jesus, right?

Do you mean that the disciples of Jesus are one with God in the state of being God?

I think Jesus says we should be one with Jesus and God, the same ways Jesus is one with the God. Jesus doesn't say "in the state of being God".

Yes, Jesus is one with God and in the form of God.
If you believe God the Father words rather than Jesus, why deny when the Father called Jesus "God" in Psalms 45:6, Heb 1:8?