Does the Bible contradict itself?

[Difflugia]

there cannot be any contradiction

And yet there are.

You need to prove that.

OK. At most two of the following three can be true:

• The Bible is inerrant.
• Ecclesiastes 9:25—"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing. They also have no more reward, because the memory of them is forgotten."
• 1 Samuel 28:15—"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The common Witness apologetic tack is to claim that the biblical narrator is wrong and it's not really Samuel that "said" this thing to Saul. In fact, the NWT puts scare quotes around Samuel's name wherever we see it in the story:



This kind of apologetic trick is fine if we're allowed to believe that the biblical narrator is wrong, but this is TD&D, where the entire Bible must be treated as authoritative. With that in mind, here's the question for debate:

Can Ecclesiastes 9 and 1 Samuel 28 be harmonized if both must be inerrant and authoritative? Or do they contradict such that one or the other must be changed?

[Difflugia]

1 Samuel can be explained.

Not without changing the text beyond what any reasonable definition of inerrancy would allow.

As I say if no one can transform itself outside God, then the verses would be contradicting. But there is one.

The biblical narrator wrote that the spirit was Samuel's. It doesn't matter whether or not someone could make themselves look like Samuel, because the Bible says that it was really Samuel.

"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

[Capbook]

1 Samuel can be explained.

Not without changing the text beyond what any reasonable definition of inerrancy would allow.

As I say if no one can transform itself outside God, then the verses would be contradicting. But there is one.

The biblical narrator wrote that the spirit was Samuel's. It doesn't matter whether or not someone could make themselves look like Samuel, because the Bible says that it was really Samuel.

"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The word "really" is not in the text, and the woman described that an old man cometh covered with a mantle. Saul does not see the face as he stooped his face to the ground, he only perceived that it was Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

[Kylie]

1 Samuel can be explained.

Not without changing the text beyond what any reasonable definition of inerrancy would allow.

As I say if no one can transform itself outside God, then the verses would be contradicting. But there is one.

The biblical narrator wrote that the spirit was Samuel's. It doesn't matter whether or not someone could make themselves look like Samuel, because the Bible says that it was really Samuel.

"And Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

The word "really" is not in the text, and the woman described that an old man cometh covered with a mantle. Saul does not see the face as he stooped his face to the ground, he only perceived that it was Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

The majority of translations claim that he KNEW it was Samuel.

KJ21
And he said unto her, “What form is he of?” And she said, “An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed himself.
ASV
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a robe. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
AMP
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid respect [to him].
AMPC
He said to her, In what form is he? And she said, An old man comes up, covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and made obeisance.
BRG
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
CSB
Then Saul asked her, “What does he look like?” “An old man is coming up,” she replied. “He’s wearing a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he knelt low with his face to the ground and paid homage.
CEB
“What does he look like?” Saul asked her. “An old man is coming up,” she said. “He’s wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed low out of respect, nose to the ground.
CJB
He asked her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man is coming up; he’s wearing a cloak.” Sha’ul realized it was Sh’mu’el, so he bowed with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
CEV
“What does it look like?” “It looks like an old man wearing a robe.” Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.
DARBY
And he said to her, What is his form? And she said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
DRA
And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said: An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored.
ERV
Saul asked, “What does he look like?” The woman answered, “He looks like an old man wearing a special robe.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down. His face touched the ground.
EASY
Saul asked, ‘What does he look like?’ She said, ‘I see an old man who is wearing a long coat.’ Saul realized that this was Samuel. He bent down low on his knees with his face towards the ground.
EHV
He said to her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man is coming up. He is covered with a robe.” Saul recognized that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground to show respect.
ESV
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
ESVUK
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
EXB
Saul asked, “What ·does he look like [is his appearance/form]?” The woman answered, “An old man wearing a ·coat [robe; cloak] is coming up.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he ·bowed facedown [prostrated himself] on the ground [and paid homage/did obeisance].
GNV
Then he said unto her, What fashion is he of? And she answered, An old man cometh up lapped in a mantel: and Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he inclined his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
GW
“In what form?” he asked her. She answered, “An old man is coming up, and he’s wearing a robe.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel. Saul knelt down with his face touching the ground.
GNT
“What does it look like?” he asked. “It's an old man coming up,” she answered. “He is wearing a cloak.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed to the ground in respect.
HCSB
Then Saul asked her, “What does he look like?” “An old man is coming up,” she replied. “He’s wearing a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed his face to the ground and paid homage.
ICB
Saul asked, “What does he look like?” The woman answered, “An old man wearing a coat is coming up.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed facedown on the ground.
ISV
Saul told her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man is coming up, and he’s wrapped in a robe.” Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed low to the ground and prostrated himself.
JUB
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man comes, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and worshipped.
KJV
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
AKJV
And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
LSB
And he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and prostrated himself.
LEB
Then he said to her, “What is his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul realized that it was Samuel, and he knelt with his face to the ground and bowed down.
TLB
“What does he look like?” “He is an old man wrapped in a robe.” Saul realized that it was Samuel and bowed low before him.
MSG
“And what does he look like?” Saul asked. “An old man ascending, robed like a priest.” Saul knew it was Samuel. He fell down, face to the ground, and worshiped.
MEV
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a robe.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel. And he kneeled with his face to the ground and bowed himself.
NOG
“In what form?” he asked her. She answered, “An old man is coming up, and he’s wearing a robe.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel. Saul knelt down with his face touching the ground.
NABRE
“What does he look like?” asked Saul. “An old man is coming up wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul knew that it was Samuel, and so he bowed his face to the ground in homage.
NASB
He said to her, “How does he appear?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
NASB1995
He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
NCB
He said to her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man wearing a robe came up.” Saul realized that it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated his face to the ground.
NCV
Saul asked, “What does he look like?” The woman answered, “An old man wearing a coat is coming up.” Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed facedown on the ground.
NET
He said to her, “What about his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!” Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down.
NIRV
“What does he look like?” Saul asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel. He bowed down. He lay down flat with his face toward the ground.
NIV
“What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
NIVUK
‘What does he look like?’ he asked. ‘An old man wearing a robe is coming up,’ she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
NKJV
So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
NLV
He said to her, “What does he look like?” And she said, “An old man is coming up. He is dressed in a long piece of clothing.” Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he put his face to the ground to show honor.
NLT
“What does he look like?” Saul asked. “He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.
NRSVA
He said to her, ‘What is his appearance?’ She said, ‘An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe.’ So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
NRSVACE
He said to her, ‘What is his appearance?’ She said, ‘An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe.’ So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
NRSVCE
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe.” So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
NRSVUE
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up; he is wrapped in a robe.” So Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did obeisance.
OJB
And he said unto her, Of what form is he? And she said, An ish zaken cometh up; and he is wearing a me’il (robe). And Sha’ul had da’as that it was Shmuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and prostrated himself.
RGT
Then he said to her, “What is his form?” And she answered, “An old man comes up, wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel. And he turned his face to the ground and bowed himself.
RSV
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
RSVCE
He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.
TLV
“What does he look like?” he asked her. “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe,” she said. Then Saul knew that it was Samuel, so he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
VOICE
Saul: Describe him for me. Medium of En-dor: An old man is coming, wrapped in a robe. Saul knew this was Samuel, and he dropped to the ground, putting his face to the floor.
WEB
He said to her, “What does he look like?” She said, “An old man comes up. He is covered with a robe.” Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and showed respect.
WYC
And Saul said to her, What manner form is of him? [What manner is the form of him?] And she said, An eld man goeth up, and he is clothed with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel; and Saul bowed himself on his face to the earth, and worshipped. (And Saul said to her, What is his form? And she said, An old man goeth up, and he is clothed with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel; and Saul bowed himself low to the ground, and honoured him.)
YLT
And he saith to her, `What [is] his form?' and she saith, `An aged man is coming up, and he [is] covered with an upper robe;' and Saul knoweth that he [is] Samuel, and boweth -- face to thee earth -- and doth obeisance.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 ... %2028%3A14

[Difflugia]

The word "really" is not in the text,

That's the best you can do? So when the Bible says that "Jesus said" something, it might be referring to Satan unless the word "really" is there somewhere?

and the woman described that an old man cometh covered with a mantle. Saul does not see the face as he stooped his face to the ground, he only perceived that it was Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

First, the word translated as "perceived" isn't in the sense that we use "think" as opposed to "know." The Hebrew root is ידע, which means "to know." Saul knew that it was Samuel.

Second, the narrator tells us in the very next verse that Saul was right. "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

[Capbook]

The word "really" is not in the text,

That's the best you can do? So when the Bible says that "Jesus said" something, it might be referring to Satan unless the word "really" is there somewhere?

and the woman described that an old man cometh covered with a mantle. Saul does not see the face as he stooped his face to the ground, he only perceived that it was Samuel.

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

First, the word translated as "perceived" isn't in the sense that we use "think" as opposed to "know." The Hebrew root is ידע, which means "to know." Saul knew that it was Samuel.

Second, the narrator tells us in the very next verse that Saul was right. "Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?'"

As the word "really" means as in actual fact, as opposed to what is said. (Oxford online definition)
With the power of Satan to transform himself, could that power cannot or impossible for him to change form as Samuel? Yes or no.

[Difflugia]

As the word "really" means as in actual fact, as opposed to what is said. (Oxford online definition)

With the power of Satan to transform himself, could that power cannot or impossible for him to change form as Samuel? Yes or no.

Absolutely!

Now the sixty-four-dollar question is if the biblical narrator says something, is it true? If it's not, how do you tell the difference between what's true and what's not?

For context, my understanding is that you're claiming that 1 Samuel 28:15 should be understood as beginning with:

And Satan said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?"

My question, then, is if that's how the authors wrote, how can we know that the prophecies of Isaiah were actually uttered by Isaiah or the sayings of Jesus were actually uttered by Jesus instead of Satan disguised as either one?

In no uncertain terms, the narrator said that Samuel spoke. He didn't say that the speaker was "Samuel, no, really, Samuel," so your claim is that it could really be someone in a supernatural disguise. This claim means that without your magic linguistic formula, virtually any character in any Bible story could have literally been Satan in disguise. You've placed us in the position of believing that no biblical story can ever be taken at face-value, let alone be considered inerrant.

[Capbook]

As the word "really" means as in actual fact, as opposed to what is said. (Oxford online definition)

With the power of Satan to transform himself, could that power cannot or impossible for him to change form as Samuel? Yes or no.

Absolutely!

Now the sixty-four-dollar question is if the biblical narrator says something, is it true? If it's not, how do you tell the difference between what's true and what's not?

For context, my understanding is that you're claiming that 1 Samuel 28:15 should be understood as beginning with:

And Satan said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?"

My question, then, is if that's how the authors wrote, how can we know that the prophecies of Isaiah were actually uttered by Isaiah or the sayings of Jesus were actually uttered by Jesus instead of Satan disguised as either one?

In no uncertain terms, the narrator said that Samuel spoke. He didn't say that the speaker was "Samuel, no, really, Samuel," so your claim is that it could really be someone in a supernatural disguise. This claim means that without your magic linguistic formula, virtually any character in any Bible story could have literally been Satan in disguise. You've placed us in the position of believing that no biblical story can ever be taken at face-value, let alone be considered inerrant.

Your the sixty four-dollar question if the Biblical narrator says something, is it true? Yes it is true that it is Samuel in form.
Same as true with the narrator of Genesis 3:1, that says "the serpent" that deceived Eve is true serpent in form but it is Satan the old serpent that deceiveth the whole world. (Rev 12:9)

This argument is to reconcile the conflicting issue of Eccl 9:25 and 1 Sam 28:15. To see the other side and provide Scriptural harmony.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

[Difflugia]

Yes it is true that it is Samuel in form.

That's not what the text says. It doesn't say that it looks like Samuel or that any of the characters mistook another entity for Samuel, but that it is, in fact, Samuel speaking.

Your answer is trying to change the question. If I ask you if a particular house is yours and you tell me, "yes, I've been in that house," that's not actually an answer to the question. In this case, either the narrator is correct and Samuel was speaking or the narrator was wrong and the Bible isn't inerrant.

Same as true with the narrator of Genesis 3:1, that says "the serpent" that deceived Eve is true serpent in form but it is Satan the old serpent that deceiveth the whole world. (Rev 12:9)

It's not the same at all. There are a number of ways to reasonably read Revelation 12:9, but none of them can apply to the spirit of Samuel. Satan might be metaphorically a serpent, Satan might in some way be an actual serpent, or, by apologist rules, "the old serpent" in Revelation might not even be referring to the serpent in Genesis. The key difference is that the serpent in Genesis isn't named as someone else. If the tempter in the Garden were, say, George the Serpent, then one could no longer claim that it was actually Satan.

This argument is to reconcile the conflicting issue of Eccl 9:25 and 1 Sam 28:15. To see the other side and provide Scriptural harmony.

So, I've asked before and received various answers, but the question for me is how much bending of the text is acceptable to provide this Scriptural harmony? In the linked thread, Goose argued that literal, symbolic contradiction is the limit:

Trying to argue against an explicit logical contradiction (such as A and ~A) I would consider as "out of bounds."

It seems to me that that is the literal boundary we're up against with how Witnesses change 1 Samuel 28: in terms of symbolic logic, you're trying to argue that Samuel is ¬Samuel.

[John17_3]

I'm not claiming that the text is defective. The text is what it is. I'm claiming that one of your traditional dogmas about the text is what's defective and the text itself is what demonstrates that.

Are you able to prove those claims? Please do so if you can.

Yes, the text is not defective specially Ecc 9:25. And the one who claim to be Samuel that communicate with Saul might not really be the prophet Samuel, as there's one that has the power to transform himself. Though he is referred as darkness can transform himself to an angel of light. As Saul's decision to consult a medium reflects the depths of his despair and folly. At this point in his life, God had withdrawn His guidance from Saul due to the king's persistent disobedience.
If there's no one has the power to transform himself outside God, we might think that those verses are contradicting.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Remember. Saul did not see Samuel.
The sorcerer was the one claiming she was seeing Samuel.

She is in contact with the wicked spirits, and they did not have to manifest, to her. They could simply communicate. She claimed to see a god, but did she?
It it true though, that the spirit could indeed manifest as Samuel, just as they would manifest, as one of our dead loved ones, or a pet cat.

[John17_3]

As the word "really" means as in actual fact, as opposed to what is said. (Oxford online definition)

With the power of Satan to transform himself, could that power cannot or impossible for him to change form as Samuel? Yes or no.

Absolutely!

Now the sixty-four-dollar question is if the biblical narrator says something, is it true? If it's not, how do you tell the difference between what's true and what's not?

For context, my understanding is that you're claiming that 1 Samuel 28:15 should be understood as beginning with:

And Satan said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up?"

My question, then, is if that's how the authors wrote, how can we know that the prophecies of Isaiah were actually uttered by Isaiah or the sayings of Jesus were actually uttered by Jesus instead of Satan disguised as either one?

In no uncertain terms, the narrator said that Samuel spoke. He didn't say that the speaker was "Samuel, no, really, Samuel," so your claim is that it could really be someone in a supernatural disguise. This claim means that without your magic linguistic formula, virtually any character in any Bible story could have literally been Satan in disguise. You've placed us in the position of believing that no biblical story can ever be taken at face-value, let alone be considered inerrant.

Your the sixty four-dollar question if the Biblical narrator says something, is it true? Yes it is true that it is Samuel in form.
Same as true with the narrator of Genesis 3:1, that says "the serpent" that deceived Eve is true serpent in form but it is Satan the old serpent that deceiveth the whole world. (Rev 12:9)

This argument is to reconcile the conflicting issue of Eccl 9:25 and 1 Sam 28:15. To see the other side and provide Scriptural harmony.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

That is an excellent point!
There are so many people who believe the Bible actually has a talking snake, simply because they fail to appreciate that one cannot take a verse, and isolate it from the rest of scriptures, since one part can explain another, or help put things in their proper context.

I don't blame skeptics for this misunderstanding, because it is really those who use the Bible, that promote these ideas, leading people to follow their lead.

I wonder what @Difflugia will say to this.