SABBATH...

[Capbook]

Is the Lord's Sabbath in the OT still for God's people in the NT?

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment

[onewithhim]

Of course we have sin. I John 1:8 (KJV) says: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I would like to hear, what do you think sin means?

Anything that misses the mark of God's perfect will. We sin, oftentimes without knowing it, and that sin must be covered with the blood of a sacrifice, and that is why Jesus died, to free us completely from sin, as long as we do our best NOT to willfully sin, and we call on God for forgiveness every day.

[onewithhim]

... I think people should not obey it because they try to gain salvation.

The Mosaic law was never designed to lead people to salvation. Paul explained that such a thing was simply not possible, even for the most sincere Israelite since it was based on the blood of animals. Your statement implies that if a person is sincere in keeping the Mosaic law (which is impossible today since there is no temple to offer the animal sacrifices), then it would be a good thing to keep it. This however amounts to a rejection of God's means to salvation, namely faith in the Christ.

I think, if one does it to gain salvation, it is not right. But, if one does it (keeps the law) because he loves God, then it is ok. However, I don't think the law demands people to sacrifice, it only gives rules for it. I have understood the sacrifices were meant to be voluntary.

To my understanding, the sacrifices under the Law were obligatory. The people had to give certain sacrifices on certain times and days. They were required to sacrifice. If you follow the Law, where are your sacrifices?

[onewithhim]

Is it not logical matter and obvious that if no sin, no reason for sin offerings?

Two Questions

1. Was Jesus without sin?
2. Did he observe all the Jewish festivals including those that involved the offering of sin sacrifices?

Yes, I think Jesus was without sin. And i believe he was also on those festivals.

Would it not be true to say that even though without sin, Jesus as a Jewish male subjected himself to the law because it was still in operation and he was an Israelite contracted to do so by nation of his heritage. If the sinless man kept the law (all the laws without exception) even though certain features of them existed for a need he did not have (forgiveness of sin) why do you think that sinful human Israelites in the same circumstances would be free from doing the same?

If the sins are forgiven, by the right Jesus gives to his disciples, there is no need for sin offering.

If the Mosaic law was still in operation, and (for whatever reason) an Israelite found themselves without sin*, they would STILL be obligated to follow the footsteps of Jesus and do exactly as he did ie keep all the laws in the Mosaic law covenant whether he needed to or not.

Sorry, I don't think the law requires sin offering, if there is no sin.

Christ did, so without abolishment of said law

Do not think that I came to annul the Law
Matt. 5:17-19

* IMPORTANT NOTE Nobody conceived from a human father can be, even for one second "without sin" (see Romans 5:12). We all exist in a sinful (imperfect, less that what God intended) condition. Even if we did nothing but sit in a chair and think no thoughts, we would still need forgiveness for existing in that condition. When the bible says we are forgiven sins or "washed" of our sins, it means God kindly accepts to OVERLOOK /pardon/ cover over the sin. It does not mean the sin does not exist or that we become, like Jesus perfect men and women. The ransom means we are freed from punishment for the sins we constantly commit every day in thought, word and deed.

Even in that case it would mean there would be no need for sin offering, if God has forgiven the sin and overlooks it.

God overlooks sin because Jesus died to cover our sin, if not deliberate. He covers the sin we inherited from Adam, as JehovahsWitness has brought out. We cannot get out from under Adam's sin because we are all born from him, who became imperfect after he sinned. Therefore no man is perfect and without sin. God overlooks sin because, imperatively, we accept Jesus' sacrifice.

[1213]

Of course we have sin. I John 1:8 (KJV) says: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I would like to hear, what do you think sin means?

Anything that misses the mark of God's perfect will. We sin, oftentimes without knowing it, and that sin must be covered with the blood of a sacrifice, and that is why Jesus died, to free us completely from sin, as long as we do our best NOT to willfully sin, and we call on God for forgiveness every day.

Ok, thank you. Do you have s scripture that supports that idea?

[1213]

To my understanding, the sacrifices under the Law were obligatory. The people had to give certain sacrifices on certain times and days. They were required to sacrifice. If you follow the Law, where are your sacrifices?

I have understood the original idea of sacrifices was to show regret, or thankfulness. Neither of those are genuine, if they are forced. That is why I don't think they were mandatory. Only the way to do it was determined, not that people must do it. I believe the reason why God didn't like the sacrifices was that they were done because people taught they had to, without any good thought. Only good reason to give thanksgiving offer is, if person is truly thankful and wants to show it. And only good reason for sin offering is if person wants to show he is sorry that he has done wrongly.

Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, "Sacrifice and offering you didn't desire, But a body did you prepare for me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure.
Heb. 10:5-6
But you go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matt. 9:13
To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to Jehovah than sacrifice.
Pro. 21:3

Obviously God doesn't want that people continuously do wrong things, which is why the sacrificing is not purpose in itself. There should happen change so that person becomes righteous and sin no more. And when there is no sin, there is no need for sin offerings. And I think this comes clear also in that God allowed the place for sacrificing to be destroyed.

However, I don't think thanksgiving offer would be wrong also today, if it is done with right reasons. And the sacrifice people could do to day also, is this:

Walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling fragrance.
Eph. 5:2

[1213]

God overlooks sin because Jesus died to cover our sin, if not deliberate. He covers the sin we inherited from Adam, as JehovahsWitness has brought out. We cannot get out from under Adam's sin because we are all born from him, who became imperfect after he sinned. Therefore no man is perfect and without sin. God overlooks sin because, imperatively, we accept Jesus' sacrifice.

I think sin is to reject God, or to live apart from God. This means, Adam and Eve were expelled from God, because they rejected God. And that is why we are also born in separation from God (in sinful state). Jesus came to restore the connection. And I believe it is restored when a person is born anew as Jesus taught, like this:

Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
John 3:3-7
But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63
He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed: that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him, and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Isra-el. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know me, from their least to their greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more.
Heb. 8:10-12 (Jer. 31:31-34)

That didn't require death of Jesus, and it is not because death of Jesus. The Biblical reason why Jesus was allowed to die is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25

[Capbook]

Yes, God said it to Adam, and how many thousand years then would passed as there is no verse that Adam inform the fowls of its food?

There is no verse that GOD informed the fowls of its food.
There is no verse that Adam informed the fowls of its food.

So? So what is your point?



JEHOVAHS WITNESS


WAS IT DESIGNED?


See the remarkable efficiency of living things
Watch This Video https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/s ... -Designed/

What an evasion?

No evasion. Your post was unclear as to what you meant.

Genesis 1:11(Third day of creation) God created vegetation but no mention about it being food.
Many thousand years passed......
(Fourth day of creation)
Many thousand years passed......
Gen 1:20 (Fifth day of creation) God created the fowls and its every kind.
Many thousand years passed......
Gen 1"30 (Sixth day of creation) God inform the fowls of what their food is. Do fowls survived many thousand year not knowing what their food is?

This is what I mean, fowls were created in the fifth day of creation. Per JW interpretation a day in the creation week would be a many thousand years shall passed. After a many thousand years had passed (the sixth day) God inform Adam what the fowls food are. Can fowls survived without knowing what food to eat? As I understand, JW said fowls had instinct, eating the vegetation created on the third day of creation week.
Do your god does not have foreknowledge? Informing Adam on the sixth what fowls food are, not knowing that the fowls were already eating many thousand years ago?

[Capbook]

When does the Father feeds the fowls in the creation week?

God created the vegetation (food) long before he created the birds and the animals. When the birds were eventually created, the vegetation was all around them for food. Their natural instincts , programmes into them by God, pushed them to eat and drink.

Adam did not need to tell the birds around him to eat; all animals were already eating because of their natural instincts to do so (compare Isaiah 1:3)


FURTHER READIND See the remarkable efficiency of living things
Watch This Video https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/s ... -Designed/


RELATED POSTS

Does scripture testify that birds have natural instincts?
viewtopic.php?p=1155007#p1155007

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

EARLY EARTH, THE GARDEN OF EDEN and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS

So, your god has no foreknowledge?
Does not know that the fowls were already eating (third day of creation) the vegetation many thousand years ago.
As your god does not know, in the sixth day of creation the true God informed Adam what foods for the fowls are.
What's the use of the true God informing Adam about the fowls food then?

Arguments above proves that the week of creation is a literal week, and a day is a literal day, as Jesus said of a twelve hours in a day (John 11:9) and the remaining as night. And the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord for His People. (Mark 2:27,28).

John 11:9
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
KJV

Mark 2:27-28
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
KJV

You forget that the Law was made obsolete, according to the many scriptures that have been offered here. The Son of man was Lord of the Sabbath before he died and fulfilled the purpose of the Law.

Also, you would benefit by clicking on the link that JehovahsWitness provided above--"The seven creative days of Genesis." Those days were not 24 hour days. They were of undetermined length. We can see that this is reasonable when we look at Genesis 2:4. It says: "This is the history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Obviously that "day" was not a 24 hour day. We don't know how long that "day" was. It's like saying "in the day of my grandfather." An unspecified period of time.

Please read my #217 post. It proves that the creation week is a literal week not many thousand years, cause if interpreted of many thousand years, the fowls have not eaten for many thousand years not knowing what their food are, or your god does not have foreknowledge. My true God is all knowing.

[JehovahsWitness]

I have understood the original idea of sacrifices was to show regret, or thankfulness.

We are talking about THE MOSAIC LAW. Under the Mosaic law communion or voluntary offerings were to show thankfulness. If one regretted breaking one of Gods commandements, the Mosaic law mandated sin offerings, these (as the name suggests were for the forgivness of sins). Sin offerings, such as the one offered during the festival that JESUS attended (and guilt offerings) were compulsory - see Num 28:1, 22

If an Israelite found himself completely sin free, perfect in every way, he would still have to participate in such sin offering rituels.

Thus your objection that since Christians are without sin, they do not have to participate in such mandated rituels is untenable. As long as you are a doing what Christ did you MUST (even though you are sinless) go to Jerusalem and keep the festivals.

Unless , that is, such law has been abolished.

Please tell, what do you think sin means?

I'm ignoring the discussion on defining sin because even if a Christian are indeed without sin, completely perfect, like Jesus', if the Mosaic law is in operation (meaning if the Mosaic law has not been annulled or modified) even if you are sin free you are STLL mandated by that law to participate in blood based sacrificial rituals.

PASSOVER Festival (Ram) - Leviticus 23:6-14
Festival of BOOTHS (70 Bulls) - Numbers 29:12-34
Festival of WEEKS ( "one young goat as a sin offering") - Leviticus 23:6-14

NOTE Jesus is specifically recorded in the gospels as attendent the Passove and the Fesitval of Booths




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[JehovahsWitness]

... But you are also insisting, "We are still under that same [MOSAIC ] law code with huge parts that there is no need for"...

I don't say we are under the law. ....

When you say you {quote} " don't say we are under the law" are you referring to the MOSAIC LAW? Would it be accurate then to say that you hold (believe ) that Christians are not under the Mosaic law. What about JEWISH Christians? Are they not under the Mosaic law?

In English when we say "under" a certain law , it means that that law applies to them so they have to obey the law in question. The ONLY way for the Mosaic law not to apply to a Jewish person (a descendants of Abraham) , regardless of where they live, is for the Mosaic law to be abolished (since it could not be modified)

JW




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